Counting numerous chickens before they're hatched, this entire mess just might yet end up with the UK more solidly in the EU than before, with a real popular mandate. At least nobody's calling the EU boring any longer.

zoon wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:
This I found interesting:

Brussels officials have also emphatically ruled out informal talks on a possible trade deal before the UK triggers article 50. “No notification, no negotiation,” one official said on Sunday. A diplomat added: “If they treat their referendum as a non-event, we will also treat their referendum as a non-event.”

That's the most hopeful thing I've seen yet.

That is what I thought. I wonder if someone is lifting the corner of the carpet already?

zoon wrote:Counting numerous chickens before they're hatched, this entire mess just might yet end up with the UK more solidly in the EU than before, with a real popular mandate.

The veritable candle?

zoon wrote:Counting numerous chickens before they're hatched, this entire mess just might yet end up with the UK more solidly in the EU than before, with a real popular mandate. At least nobody's calling the EU boring any longer.

I thought that was what was supposed to happen when the Remain vote won.

mattthomas wrote:

ronmcd wrote:It's ALL falling apart today. That shite Boris wrote in his telegraph article was clearly talking about being IN the EU, and what he said is being ripped apart. He quoted the German equivalent of CBI saying we'd still be in the single market, they've said today that's nonsense.

You know what? I think Boris is fucked. He's going to be hung drawn and quartered by the people who voted out.

Good, I hope so.

I hope we come through this in the best possible shape, given where we are now.
I understand the enmity towards Johnson and Co. but if he will now push for staying in the EEA and free movement, or as close to what we have as possible, then that's a good thing and it's better not to cheer on the lynch mob.

GrahamH wrote:

mattthomas wrote:

ronmcd wrote:It's ALL falling apart today. That shite Boris wrote in his telegraph article was clearly talking about being IN the EU, and what he said is being ripped apart. He quoted the German equivalent of CBI saying we'd still be in the single market, they've said today that's nonsense.

You know what? I think Boris is fucked. He's going to be hung drawn and quartered by the people who voted out.

Good, I hope so.

I hope we come through this in the best possible shape, given where we are now.
I understand the enmity towards Johnson and Co. but if he will now push for staying in the EEA and free movement, or as close to what we have as possible, then that's a good thing and it's better not to cheer on the lynch mob.

Yeah, the absolute last thing we want is an EU exit negotiated by Farage and his ilk.

At least under BoJo it'd likely be as minimal a membership downgrade as the EU would let the UK get away with.

I hope we come through this in the best possible shape, given where we are now.
I understand the enmity towards Johnson and Co. but if he will now push for staying in the EEA and free movement, or as close to what we have as possible, then that's a good thing and it's better not to cheer on the lynch mob.

It's "a good thing" in the sense that voting to stay in the EU would have been a good thing. But it raises the important question of why we've wasted so much fucking time and effort and grief, and given vent to forces of bigotry and hatred that would really be better left under wraps, when we're only going to be more or less where we were anyway and even the people who voted for Leave aren't going to get any of what they thought they were voting for.

The House of Commons should reject the referendum result. A few people could be angry but it would be worth it. Any other position to that of being a full member will be a disaster and turn out very expensive with less rights.

Beatsong wrote:

I hope we come through this in the best possible shape, given where we are now.
I understand the enmity towards Johnson and Co. but if he will now push for staying in the EEA and free movement, or as close to what we have as possible, then that's a good thing and it's better not to cheer on the lynch mob.

It's "a good thing" in the sense that voting to stay in the EU would have been a good thing. But it raises the important question of why we've wasted so much fucking time and effort and grief, and given vent to forces of bigotry and hatred that would really be better left under wraps, when we're only going to be more or less where we were anyway and even the people who voted for Leave aren't going to get any of what they thought they were voting for.

Because "autonomy", "taking back our country", and:

some torygraph hack on twitter wrote:A caller on LBC just said he voted leave because he lives with some Hungarians and was "sick of them speaking Hungarian all the time".

Beatsong wrote:

I hope we come through this in the best possible shape, given where we are now.
I understand the enmity towards Johnson and Co. but if he will now push for staying in the EEA and free movement, or as close to what we have as possible, then that's a good thing and it's better not to cheer on the lynch mob.

It's "a good thing" in the sense that voting to stay in the EU would have been a good thing. But it raises the important question of why we've wasted so much fucking time and effort and grief, and given vent to forces of bigotry and hatred that would really be better left under wraps, when we're only going to be more or less where we were anyway and even the people who voted for Leave aren't going to get any of what they thought they were voting for.

I'd guess that BoJo might think he can get away with a few minor tweaks to the existing system, because the whole immigration hype is over a problem that doesn't really exist; at least to nothing like the extent that the Leave campaign said it did. He and some other Leave campaigners have made noises in the past about making it a requirement for a firm offer of a job before an EU migrant can travel. They wouldn't make a huge difference to the existing situation, but could make for a passable solution in the public eye.

That said, Cameron tried something similar with making it more difficult for EU migrants to claim benefits, and look where that got him.

Scot Dutchy wrote:The House of Commons should reject the referendum result. A few people could be angry but it would be worth it. Any other position to that of being a full member will be a disaster and turn out very expensive with less rights.

As GrahamH has been saying, to do that at this stage would be worryingly against the democratic vote. Not triggering Article 50 for a time, while the argument rages on and it becomes clearer and clearer that millions of Leave voters acted on the basis of a lie, would, I very much hope, have the same eventual result without setting off yet another firestorm.

There isn't an immigration problem but there is a working class with no hope problem. Getting rid of immigration (even if it doesn't happen) gives them hope.

Giving people hope is one way of managing them, maybe the only way

You know what I mean 'arry?

Tyson Fury also wants us out of the EU. And probably wants to kill all the gheys as well.

Let's re-run the referendum, with the following rules; any politician caught lying or making promises they are in no position to deliver on, is handed over to Tyson Fury, with "I'm ghey" tattooed on their forehead.

zoon wrote:Counting numerous chickens before they're hatched, this entire mess just might yet end up with the UK more solidly in the EU than before, with a real popular mandate. At least nobody's calling the EU boring any longer.

It was never boring just people did not think their opinions matter. This is no longer true anymore.

btw personal note, tuco also said that result of referendum cannot be discounted - leave is leave -, not only Thommo and GrahamH, regardless I have no say in UK affairs. All I ask is little respect, or at least the same respect I demonstrate ;)

chairman bill wrote:Let's re-run the referendum, with the following rules; any politician caught lying or making promises they are in no position to deliver on, is handed over to Tyson Fury, with "I'm ghey" tattooed on their forehead.

To some politicians, that's just foreplay.

Beatsong wrote:

I hope we come through this in the best possible shape, given where we are now.
I understand the enmity towards Johnson and Co. but if he will now push for staying in the EEA and free movement, or as close to what we have as possible, then that's a good thing and it's better not to cheer on the lynch mob.

It's "a good thing" in the sense that voting to stay in the EU would have been a good thing. But it raises the important question of why we've wasted so much fucking time and effort and grief, and given vent to forces of bigotry and hatred that would really be better left under wraps, when we're only going to be more or less where we were anyway and even the people who voted for Leave aren't going to get any of what they thought they were voting for.

Is there any basis for thinking it is better for the fractures in society to be kept under wraps? Isn’t it always better to know what the social divisions are front and center, warts and all? I thought, mistakenly perhaps, that the referendum had become a megaphone call for help by the castaways who’ve missed out on the globalisation/neo-liberal boat. The inequality and injustices this forum has been banging on about for years, yet successive governments have failed to address.

Maybe I am being naïve in thinking the issues now have a better chance of being identified and addressed than had the referendum not in fact happened.

fisherman wrote:

Beatsong wrote:

I hope we come through this in the best possible shape, given where we are now.
I understand the enmity towards Johnson and Co. but if he will now push for staying in the EEA and free movement, or as close to what we have as possible, then that's a good thing and it's better not to cheer on the lynch mob.

It's "a good thing" in the sense that voting to stay in the EU would have been a good thing. But it raises the important question of why we've wasted so much fucking time and effort and grief, and given vent to forces of bigotry and hatred that would really be better left under wraps, when we're only going to be more or less where we were anyway and even the people who voted for Leave aren't going to get any of what they thought they were voting for.

Is there any basis for thinking it is better for the fractures in society to be kept under wraps? Isn’t it always better to know what the social divisions are front and center, warts and all? I thought, mistakenly perhaps, that the referendum had become a megaphone call for help by the castaways who’ve missed out on the globalisation/neo-liberal boat. The inequality and injustices this forum has been banging on about for years, yet successive governments have failed to address.

Maybe I am being naïve in thinking the issues now have a better chance of being identified and addressed than had the referendum not in fact happened.

Some fractures may be best covered up. It may be that most people are a little bit racist, but making that known probably doesn't help anyone while encouraging the real racists to vent openly. Problems that can be addressed are probably best exposed, but the intractable ones might be best left in the dark to wither, or tackled discretely.

Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament.

“It is also within parliament’s powers to call a second referendum, now that the dust has begun to settle and the reality of a post-Brexit nation is coming into view. We need a second referendum at the very least, on the basis of a plan that is yet to even be drawn up.”
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/pa ... spartandhp

This is better than petitions. The need for substantial plans is clear, and would be something that should be set out so we can asked for a mandate.

I fear that might sink Boris' EU-lite.

What if we lose a bank and a foreign manufacturing plant and the pound is still falling and prices rising? How bad would it have to get to change Leave minds?