Andrew4handel's Musings on Atheism

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Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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Re: No Alternative to God

#81  Postby hackenslash » Feb 05, 2011 7:36 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:I don't have direct evidence of God and his/her character and traits. But I Just know a materialist non created purposeless universe intuitively doesn't make sense.


Nor does quantum superposition or the elasticity of time. What of it? Your personal incredulity is of no consequence.

I don't understand cancer that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or have a cure or explanation. You can derive valid inferences from existence without full explanations. A creatorless meaningless purposeless universe does not seem like a valid inference from the complex multifarious phenomenal evidence.


In what respect? It should be noted that 'valid' has a very specific meaning, and any invalidity ascribed to the universe in the way you are employing it can equally be levelled at your deity, and I do mean your deity.

I think a meaniningless coincidental universe is pointless and can be percieved as so easily despite the occassional pleasent distraction like the countryside and handel and bach and cathedral which does not compensate for mortality and the deficiencies of the human body.


Equivocation on the use of 'meaningless'. The idea that the universe has no special use for us doesn't make life pointless. This has been pointed out to you ad nauseum, yet you continue to reassert it. This smacks of dishonesty in precisely the same way as your claim to be an atheist, a claim that I do not accept, based on a preponderance of evidence.

Buddhism and reincarnation..possibly..Our genes are apparently reincarnations.


No they aren't. They're descendents.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#82  Postby aspire1670 » Feb 05, 2011 7:39 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:

I don't understand cancer that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or have a cure or explanation. You can derive valid inferences from existence without full explanations. A creatorless meaningless purposeless universe does not seem like a valid inference from the complex multifarious phenomenal evidence.


But we know cancers do exist, Andrew, so another of your analogies fails to be analagous. And please show us some evidence for design. You make very strange arguments for an atheist. Atheist is not written with a space between the a and theist.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#83  Postby Nebogipfel » Feb 05, 2011 7:39 pm

This is another thread that's going nowhere fast... :coffee:
Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion
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Re: No Alternative to God

#84  Postby tytalus » Feb 05, 2011 7:46 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:This is another thread that's going nowhere fast... :coffee:

Quelle surprise.

At least I got a laugh blowing Spearthrower's mind with that drowning by dehydration story. Although it was from Australia. :) Looked up the phrase on a lark...didn't expect to find that!
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Re: No Alternative to God

#85  Postby Latimeria » Feb 05, 2011 7:47 pm

Agreed. Many religions train people to think that "meaning" and "purpose" in life are derived from God. Suddenly, if someone rebels against the idea that God exists then all sense of "meaning" and "purpose" are gone along with it. God and a meaningful existence are not inextricably connected, just connected in the minds of people surrounded by religion who have never tried hard enough to separate the concepts.

Take a good long look at life and then make your own meaning and purpose.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#86  Postby reddix » Feb 05, 2011 7:53 pm

:book:
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Re: No Alternative to God

#87  Postby Nebogipfel » Feb 05, 2011 7:55 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:The alternative to god/s is nothing.


Nope. The alternative to god/s is a universe without god/s.

There is no alternative explanation for the existence of reality.


On the contrary, there are many alternative explanations for the existence of reality. Some of them even have evidential support

Noone has presented a genuine alternative except ignorance.


Again, completely wrong. People have been thinking about the concept of a godless universe for well over 2,000 years, possibly even longer. Look up Epicurus and the atomists. Their arguments were not based on ignorance, but simply on trying to think rationally about the world they saw around them. Secularists and humanists have been doing the same ever since.

So, Andrew, zero out of three for achievement, and a D-minus for effort. Must try harder :naughty:
Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion
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Re: No Alternative to God

#88  Postby paceetrate » Feb 05, 2011 7:56 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:I don't have direct evidence of God and his/her character and traits. But I Just know a materialist non created purposeless universe intuitively doesn't make sense.



paceetrate wrote:
Does that make intuitive sense? No. Why should it? We're bipedal, pedomorphic apes. Our jerry-rigged brains were evolved to run down antelope and find water and make babies. Why the hell should the fine workings of the Universe make sense to us? Insisting that X didn't happen because it doesn't make sense to you, and that Y must have happened instead because that does make sense to you, when X has evidence and Y does not, is both ignorant and juvenile. Just because you've never seen anything in your tiny, limited existence pop into being, doesn't mean particles can't. It's about as self-centered as insisting that no atheist could be happy if you aren't. Seems to be a bit of a running theme in these threads.


I'm going to keep repeating this until Mr. Andrew stops assuming that his argument from incredulity is valid.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#89  Postby Andrew4Handel » Feb 05, 2011 8:16 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:Again, completely wrong. People have been thinking about the concept of a godless universe for well over 2,000 years, possibly even longer. Look up Epicurus and the atomists. Their arguments were not based on ignorance, but simply on trying to think rationally about the world they saw around them. Secularists and humanists have been doing the same ever since.



They Tried and failed. They have not explained why the universe exists at all but are resisting the obvious conclusion.

There is never going to be a materialist explanation for existence it is obvious based on the paradigm of causality at work.

Let alone an explanation for consciousness
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Re: No Alternative to God

#90  Postby Fallible » Feb 05, 2011 8:19 pm

:picard:
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Re: No Alternative to God

#91  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 05, 2011 8:21 pm

WTF
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: No Alternative to God

#92  Postby Andrew4Handel » Feb 05, 2011 8:21 pm

aspire1670 wrote:
Andrew4Handel wrote:

I don't understand cancer that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or have a cure or explanation. You can derive valid inferences from existence without full explanations. A creatorless meaningless purposeless universe does not seem like a valid inference from the complex multifarious phenomenal evidence.


But we know cancers do exist, Andrew, so another of your analogies fails to be analagous. And please show us some evidence for design. You make very strange arguments for an atheist. Atheist is not written with a space between the a and theist.


The evidence for god/s is the existence of reality and the universe.

It is not evidence of nothing.
It's staring you I the face.

Putting a godless/creatorless spin on it is a choice not a neccessity.

The universe from nowhere for no reason is incoherent and unjustified and then claiming people can conjure up real meaning in this meaningless paradigm is a delusion.

It's not like atheist are happy with religious people conjuring up reason through their holy books and religious beliefs.

Atheists attack religion and offer nihilism and a cult of science/materialism.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#93  Postby Andrew4Handel » Feb 05, 2011 8:22 pm

Atheists agreeing with each others prejudices and slappping each other on the back.

Quelle suprise!!
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Re: No Alternative to God

#94  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 05, 2011 8:24 pm

JFC how often have we heard this fucking crap!
What the fuck are you on? I would stop it for your own health. It sounds bad very bad.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#95  Postby Fallible » Feb 05, 2011 8:25 pm

So the evidence for god/s is the existence of the reality and the universe, this is staring us in the face...and you're an atheist, are you?

Advice - don't read back through this thread in the morning.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#96  Postby Andrew4Handel » Feb 05, 2011 8:27 pm

Fallible wrote:So the evidence for god/s is the existence of the reality and the universe, this is staring us in the face...and you're an atheist, are you?

Advice - don't read back through this thread in the morning.


I have not claimed to be an atheist..I am an agnostic.

And I accept that the universe could well be evidence for a creator..like a microwave oven.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#97  Postby Andrew4Handel » Feb 05, 2011 8:29 pm

I just hate the promotion of atheist nihilism on the grounds that it is rational when that is not obviously the case except to the minds of atheist believers.

You're all happy to have finite lives and eager to embrace death and oblivion and we all should be. Whoooppee!
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Re: No Alternative to God

#98  Postby Fallible » Feb 05, 2011 8:31 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:
Fallible wrote:So the evidence for god/s is the existence of the reality and the universe, this is staring us in the face...and you're an atheist, are you?

Advice - don't read back through this thread in the morning.


I have not claimed to be an atheist..I am an agnostic.

And I accept that the universe could well be evidence for a creator..like a microwave oven.


Well that's not what you said now Andrew, is it. You said that it IS evidence, and such evidence is staring us in the face. You won't find many agnostics saying that. Do you know who you will find saying that?
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Re: No Alternative to God

#99  Postby Nebogipfel » Feb 05, 2011 8:32 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:Again, completely wrong. People have been thinking about the concept of a godless universe for well over 2,000 years, possibly even longer. Look up Epicurus and the atomists. Their arguments were not based on ignorance, but simply on trying to think rationally about the world they saw around them. Secularists and humanists have been doing the same ever since.



They Tried and failed.


Failed to do what? Come up with an explanation that satisfies you? Well, gee, that's just too bad. I guess Epicurus and the other humanists didn't realise they had to meet your expectations. What they did manage to do though, is found some important lines of thinking in Western thought that continue to this day. I'd say that's a success.


They have not explained why the universe exists at all but are resisting the obvious conclusion.


Actually, they came to the obvious conclusion that maybe the universe doesn't have a reason for existing at all.
This is the obvious conclusion that you are resisting, and apparently want to condemn the rest of the world of resisting too.


There is never going to be a materialist explanation for existence it is obvious based on the paradigm of causality at work.

Let alone an explanation for consciousness


Word salad. Sorry.
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Re: No Alternative to God

#100  Postby Fallible » Feb 05, 2011 8:33 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:I just hate the promotion of atheist nihilism on the grounds that it is rational when that is not obviously the case except to the minds of atheist believers.

You're all happy to have finite lives and eager to embrace death and oblivion and we all should be. Whoooppee!


Strawman argument.
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