pelfdaddy wrote:I wholly agree. It may not be about getting atheists to behave better, since mild, well-placed ridicule does have a softening effect, and it probably is not about logic and reason either, since believers don't actually believe for reasons in the first place.

It's about the attractiveness of the alternative.

I agree, it's a good idea to make disbelief a lot of fun.

Believers generally feel the weight of believing things that are difficult to hoist above the shoulders, the disappointment of unanswered prayer, and the awkwardness of their own apologists. But they are fearful of "what's out there" in the absence of God.

Believers are inadequately exposed to the ideals of humansim, the blessings of secularism, the power of the scientific method. They are genuinely worried about the absence of absolute morality, the loss of beauty and mystery, and the "dark side" of technology. I am in favor of exposing them to our better ideals whenever possible. I am in favor of others becoming as free as I am.

Yet there seems to be a contentment with their ignorance of things beyond their personal, social, church group, cultural interest and they seem to have a cohesion within those groups that they also seem to worry about how the groups will react if they break away. Very often they do get kicked out of the group which is very frightening, which is why it should be an appeal to groups of people not individuals.

This is why I also favor practically anything non-believers do to advance these ideals, whether this involves debate, ridicule, collective activism, billboards, literature, culture, or personal outreach. There is no good reason to assume this is all a waste of time because believers are somehow intractable. Many of us were religious, but no longer are. I think good things are possible. I guess I'm a believer.

Personally, I find the ridicule amusing sometimes, but I also feel sorry for people who really don't know anything about what atheism means when they're made the butt of nasty jokes.

Agrippina,

If my posting above appeared to represent disagreement with your comments concerning nastiness, it was not my intent. It was merely to expand upon your earlier idea, and to express optimism that we are not wasting our time here.

pelfdaddy wrote:Agrippina,

If my posting above appeared to represent disagreement with your comments concerning nastiness, it was not my intent. It was merely to expand upon your earlier idea, and to express optimism that we are not wasting our time here.

Sure, I didn't see it that way at all. We're all on the same side here. I want to promote critical thinking as much as I can. It's very difficult to make old people think about things without them referring to their "experience." So anything I can learn about how to go about it not sounding like I'm preaching or "on about the Bible" again, will help.

Pelfdaddy wrote:
When I come across perspectives like that of Oldskeptic ("I've been an atheist for decades and I'm just telling you...you're wasting your time"), I understand and appreciate it, but cannot fully share it because I have already influenced several believers to the effect that they are now happier for it; and I cannot help but be sanguine.

Where did I write that? What I said was, "I just want people to stop believing in stupid shit when the evidence goes against stupid shit." And I don't think showing up at Christian churches acting nice and polite is going to do anything towards this. The problem isn't that Christians hate atheists and think that atheists are mean rude people. It's that too many of them believe in stupid shit, and have no inclination to examine their beliefs skeptically,rationally, or logically.

Oldskeptic wrote:

Pelfdaddy wrote:
When I come across perspectives like that of Oldskeptic ("I've been an atheist for decades and I'm just telling you...you're wasting your time"), I understand and appreciate it, but cannot fully share it because I have already influenced several believers to the effect that they are now happier for it; and I cannot help but be sanguine.

Where did I write that? What I said was, "I just want people to stop believing in stupid shit when the evidence goes against stupid shit." And I don't think showing up at Christian churches acting nice and polite is going to do anything towards this. The problem isn't that Christians hate atheists and think that atheists are mean rude people. It's that too many of them believe in stupid shit, and have no inclination to examine their beliefs skeptically,rationally, or logically.

Which is what I meant when I said that about their comfort zones earlier, family, friends, culture, social life is all wrapped around their church. If they lose that, they lose their comfort zone, so they prefer to just stay with the "shit."

Oldskeptic,

My attempt was to paraphrase. In response to your insistence that "It's a fucking stunt", I merely wanted to say "Yeah, I get that".

I won't be intruding in churches. It's their place. I also won't go to a vegan gathering handing out samples of my home made beef jerky. Everyone should enjoy beef jerky.

If you want to be seen do it on neutral ground. The reason rally in Washington is a good example. Alternately "wear your colors" I've got a shirt with "Atheism is not a religion. It's a personal relationship with reality." It's a good conversation starter. Remember conversations include spectators.

Thanks for that, but I have to re-iterate a couple of things; this event is not a rally, it is a peaceful and quiet outreach with a stated purpose. And having been the pastor of an american evangelical church, I can tell you that the prospect of intruding will not be, in the end, one of great importance.

pelfdaddy wrote:Thanks for that, but I have to re-iterate a couple of things; this event is not a rally, it is a peaceful and quiet outreach with a stated purpose. And having been the pastor of an american evangelical church, I can tell you that the prospect of intruding will not be, in the end, one of great importance.

The prospect of intruding on people is of deep personal importance to me, so we’ll have to agree to differ on that point.

This idea will not work in the UK. Christian folk slam the door on other Christian door-knockers here, so going to a UK church in the spirit of atheist ‘outreach’ will be treated in exactly the same way as someone saying ‘have a nice day’; i.e. as insincere, intrusive, embarrassing, stupid, and perpetrated by somebody trying to sell you something. Religion is on the back-burner here even in Catholic circles, and the Anglican Church simply couldn’t care less except when someone is going for preferment. The Muslim population in the main just wants to be left alone. Of course both they and Christians will take advantage of any legislation that serves their self-interest (e.g.faith schools). Who wouldn’t?

In the main theists and atheists are already fully aware that they are good people unless shown otherwise. Judgement is mainly by by deed. There really is no battleground except the odd spiky comment on a blog or in a newspaper. Northern Ireland has chilled out beyond all recognition compared to the 60s and 70s. There are extremists of course but you can’t persuade psychopaths anyway. If you want to blow somebody up, you’ll usually find a pretext in which to do it. Education of the young is the key if atheists want to do anything about religious attitudes, and that where delicate persuasion comes in. Adults are usually set in their ways. As said earlier, I understand and agree mainly with your motivations, but you are advocating the use of a tool that for the UK is useless. If you think this will work in the USA then great. Good luck with it.

Thanks for the well-wishes Iam43, and indeed it seems that religious attitudes and the general ubiquity of active Christianity in the States make the climate entirely opposite that of Western Europe and other regions. What, may I ask, is the motivation for non-Americans to take part in a discussion forum like this one, or to engage in any atheist activism or involvement of any kind, seeing as there is no perception of real friction between competing cosmologies?

pelfdaddy wrote:Thanks for the well-wishes Iam43, and indeed it seems that religious attitudes and the general ubiquity of active Christianity in the States make the climate entirely opposite that of Western Europe and other regions. What, may I ask, is the motivation for non-Americans to take part in a discussion forum like this one, or to engage in any atheist activism or involvement of any kind, seeing as there is no perception of real friction between competing cosmologies?

Atheists aren't demonised or misrepresented here nearly as much, that is not to say all our battles are won, just that our situation isn't nearly as dire as appears to be the case in your homeland.

We still have a fight, it's just oftentimes a different fight to our colonial chums.

pelfdaddy wrote:Thanks for the well-wishes Iam43, and indeed it seems that religious attitudes and the general ubiquity of active Christianity in the States make the climate entirely opposite that of Western Europe and other regions. What, may I ask, is the motivation for non-Americans to take part in a discussion forum like this one, or to engage in any atheist activism or involvement of any kind, seeing as there is no perception of real friction between competing cosmologies?

I wouldn't like to say that there is no perception of friction, and I can't speak for the rest of Europe (I'll leave that to our policiticans). There just doesn't seem to be the fever pitch about religion in the UK as there appears to be in the USA. Maybe the religous friction-merchants all set sail in the eighteenth century. Brits are likely to get more steamed about the national debt, the National Health Service, the price of fuel / food, Europe, or The X Factor . We haven't got to the stage where we can all link arms and indulge in a communal sing-song yet, but I don't think we do too badly here regarding toleration. That's not to say that there is no room for more.

Again I wouldn't like to speculate on other people's motivations for visiting here, but my reasons are social, fun, entertainment, the exchanging of ideas, and the challenge to my own. I also enjoy being in serious danger of actually learning something. I'm suspicious of most activism (as it usually ends with a power-play somewhere along the line), but that's me being a sceptic I guess. I believe passionately in education for the atheist cause, but know that there will always be those who will not have it at any price. I have no problem with that, as long as they do not try to impose their will on society in general. That is a type of fascism and I won't have it: Europe still pays in blood occasionally from the legacy of the last goose-stepping idiot.

trubble76 wrote:Atheists aren't demonised or misrepresented here nearly as much, that is not to say all our battles are won, just that our situation isn't nearly as dire as appears to be the case in your homeland.

We still have a fight, it's just oftentimes a different fight to our colonial chums.

That's about it. I would just add that the tools used for these fights often have our friends either laughing themselves to death or screaming at us in frustration. Diversity: Gotta love it.

And how about you comment about a sunset and how the dust in the atmosphere makes it look like that and that how we are all part of that being met with "why do you bring religion into everything?"

Agrippina wrote:And how about you comment about a sunset and how the dust in the atmosphere makes it look like that and that how we are all part of that being met with "why do you bring religion into everything?"

erm... I'd probably ask the person if he/she had a rough day at work?

I would rather stick hot pins in my eyes than sit through another mind numbing church service. And as Lak said earlier, I don't give a shit what they think of me.

Keep the feedback coming, this is interesting, and I am finding out a ton of stuff.