campermon wrote:

Lion IRC wrote:Hi Campermon,
I think Melchior is your "soul" mate.
God bless you both!
Lion (IRC)

Crikey! Does that mean I'm stuck with her for all eternity?

Only if your a mormon apparently! http://lds.about.com/od/familylifeandma ... rriage.htm

j x

jerome wrote:

campermon wrote:

Lion IRC wrote:Hi Campermon,
I think Melchior is your "soul" mate.
God bless you both!
Lion (IRC)

Crikey! Does that mean I'm stuck with her for all eternity?

Only if your a mormon apparently! http://lds.about.com/od/familylifeandma ... rriage.htm

j x

That's a relief!!

I'm enjoying the debate so far, but the case for ghosts is seriously lacking substance

Campermon asks why would apparitions only appear in the dark? I agree with his answer, but we could also suppose that perception of the normal world swamps perception of a spirit world. If ghosts exist but only interact with light in a limited way, producing faint images, then we could not see them in bright light. I'm finding it hard to see my laptop screen in the sunshine right now.

Phenomena that occur when we disrupt the brain (fasting, fever, stroke, seizure, drugs, tumours etc) strongly suggest that the resulting perceptions are not of real things. To argue the opposite we would have to consider the disruption to be suppressing normal perceptions in a way that permits faint signals to be received (turn out the lights to see the projected image).

Any consideration of the paranormal that makes appeals to repeatability of specific phenomena is surely missing the point. The focus should be on verifying whether unpredictable phenomena do occur, and eliminating the possibility of natural causes. We can't assume that a ghost that supposedly calls the speaking clock from phone A will do the same on any other phone, but phone S can be monitored to ensure no human is placing the calls.

If a ghost supposedly generates text messages on a mobile phone we should not assume it can only arrive via the mobile network, but that possibility should certainly be investigated thoroughly.

The events took place in Rosenheim in southern Bavaria, more specifically in the office of lawyer Sigmund Adam. Starting in 1967 strange phenomena began in the office - the lights would turn themselves off and on again and swing, telephones rang without anybody apparently calling (a silent caller), photocopiers spilled their copier fluid, and desk drawers would open without being touched. The Deutsche Post installed instruments that recorded numerous phone calls which were never made. Within five weeks the instruments recorded roughly 600 calls to the speaking clock (number 0119 in Germany) even though all the phones in the office were disabled and only Adam himself had the key required to enable them. In one 15-minute period the speaking clock had been called 46 times, sometimes at a rate that appeared impossible with the mechanical dialling system of 1967. In October 1967 all light bulbs went out with a huge bang.

This would pretty much be a normal day in a Greek home.

John

z8000783 wrote:

The events took place in Rosenheim in southern Bavaria, more specifically in the office of lawyer Sigmund Adam. Starting in 1967 strange phenomena began in the office - the lights would turn themselves off and on again and swing, telephones rang without anybody apparently calling (a silent caller), photocopiers spilled their copier fluid, and desk drawers would open without being touched. The Deutsche Post installed instruments that recorded numerous phone calls which were never made. Within five weeks the instruments recorded roughly 600 calls to the speaking clock (number 0119 in Germany) even though all the phones in the office were disabled and only Adam himself had the key required to enable them. In one 15-minute period the speaking clock had been called 46 times, sometimes at a rate that appeared impossible with the mechanical dialling system of 1967. In October 1967 all light bulbs went out with a huge bang.

This would pretty much be a normal day in a Greek home.

John

GrahamH wrote:I'm enjoying the debate so far, but the case for ghosts is seriously lacking substance

Campermon asks why would apparitions only appear in the dark? I agree with his answer, but we could also suppose that perception of the normal world swamps perception of a spirit world. If ghosts exist but only interact with light in a limited way, producing faint images, then we could not see them in bright light. I'm finding it hard to see my laptop screen in the sunshine right now.

Phenomena that occur when we disrupt the brain (fasting, fever, stroke, seizure, drugs, tumours etc) strongly suggest that the resulting perceptions are not of real things. To argue the opposite we would have to consider the disruption to be suppressing normal perceptions in a way that permits faint signals to be received (turn out the lights to see the projected image).

Any consideration of the paranormal that makes appeals to repeatability of specific phenomena is surely missing the point. The focus should be on verifying whether unpredictable phenomena do occur, and eliminating the possibility of natural causes. We can't assume that a ghost that supposedly calls the speaking clock from phone A will do the same on any other phone, but phone S can be monitored to ensure no human is placing the calls.

If a ghost supposedly generates text messages on a mobile phone we should not assume it can only arrive via the mobile network, but that possibility should certainly be investigated thoroughly.

Interesting points Graham..Food for thought.

Cheers!

z8000783 wrote:

The events took place in Rosenheim in southern Bavaria, more specifically in the office of lawyer Sigmund Adam. Starting in 1967 strange phenomena began in the office - the lights would turn themselves off and on again and swing, telephones rang without anybody apparently calling (a silent caller), photocopiers spilled their copier fluid, and desk drawers would open without being touched. The Deutsche Post installed instruments that recorded numerous phone calls which were never made. Within five weeks the instruments recorded roughly 600 calls to the speaking clock (number 0119 in Germany) even though all the phones in the office were disabled and only Adam himself had the key required to enable them. In one 15-minute period the speaking clock had been called 46 times, sometimes at a rate that appeared impossible with the mechanical dialling system of 1967. In October 1967 all light bulbs went out with a huge bang.

This would pretty much be a normal day in a Greek home.

John

Trust John! He won't make a drachma out of a crisis...

j x

jerome wrote:
Trust John! He won't make a drachma out of a crisis...

j x

God help us all !!

Bit delayed by chaotic life events - still I have a few days till deadline. WIll try to reply tonight, late, if have time. Bust making medieval maps for work project right now

jerome wrote:Bit delayed by chaotic life events - still I have a few days till deadline. WIll try to reply tonight, late, if have time. Bust making medieval maps for work project right now

OK, I wrote a quick piece offline, and have posted it. I could not reply properly as i did not have Campermons last in front of me, but I will next time

j x

Incidentally Twistor59 has kindly read the German paper on the Rosenheim spuk investigations, and queries on the technical aspects of the investigations might be directed towards him perhaps?

jerome wrote:OK, I wrote a quick piece offline, and have posted it. I could not reply properly as i did not have Campermons last in front of me, but I will next time

j x

Cheers Jerome

jerome wrote:OK, I wrote a quick piece offline, and have posted it. I could not reply properly as i did not have Campermons last in front of me, but I will next time

j x

John

jerome wrote:Incidentally Twistor59 has kindly read the German paper on the Rosenheim spuk investigations, and queries on the technical aspects of the investigations might be directed towards him perhaps?

Sure, I'll have a go at answering questions on the investigation reported in the paper if required.

twistor59 wrote:

jerome wrote:Incidentally Twistor59 has kindly read the German paper on the Rosenheim spuk investigations, and queries on the technical aspects of the investigations might be directed towards him perhaps?

Sure, I'll have a go at answering questions on the investigation reported in the paper if required.

is there anything that struck you as being 'inexplicable' in the report?

z8000783 wrote:

jerome wrote:OK, I wrote a quick piece offline, and have posted it. I could not reply properly as i did not have Campermons last in front of me, but I will next time

j x

John

John, you ok? You have not expired laughing have you as your icons suggest have you? I never claimed to be psychic, but I'm a bit worried now (see my latest debate post if this makes no sense to you! )

j x

OMG, you're right.

John

Ah, you are now a ghost? Excellent, I'd offer you a drink -- but I don't serve spirits!

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo