Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43481  Postby proudfootz » Oct 01, 2023 11:48 pm

Stein wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFAHkfP8hkc

Stein


One of the assumptions about a literary origin for the Jesus figure is that it would be invented all at once on a rainy afternoon, which it seems McGrath and the host (Elliot Saxton) dive into at the beginning. They find the many contradictions among the gospel narratives and attempts to shoehorn Jesus into scriptural prophecies to be awkward, and that this is an especial problem for 'mythicism'. I don't know that anyone is arguing it was made up by one person who had a concern for internal consistency - and even if such a person was found arguing that line it is not necessary for a Jesus who only exists in literature.

About a half hour in they make the case that the Historical Jesus is a better weapon against conservative christianity than a Jesus who never existed because it's a 'consensus' view more likely to garner respect. Maybe some folks thing being a better weapon is a reason to believe something, but for myself I am more interested in what happened.

They go on to suggest no 'actual scholars' seriously consider that Jesus didn't exist, then relent and admit some do. The idea is that it's safe to go with a majority, but who makes up this majority is more implied than specified. It should be obvious that being in the minority opinion doesn't imply being in the wrong either.

Most of the talk is vague handwaving about 'mythicists will say this' and 'mythicists say that' without directing the audience to who in particular, which might help us understand what the full argument might be. It would be helpful to be more specific, like "Dr X says in this paper that..." in order to make clear what the problem might be and how the counterargument resolves the issue.

There follows some discussion of interpolations. Not exactly sure how this is a special problem for 'mythicists' as it's just a problem with early christian texts anyone examining as evidence one way or the other. If the charge is that mythicism requires certain passages be interpolations it would be best to look at who makes the claim, what exactly is the claim, what evidence and arguments to they bring forward to advance their position.

At about the 40 minute mark they joke about a lost hypothetical document that 'mythicists' will conjure up (apparently trying to refer to Richard Carrier), which again would be useful to know where the claim is that this material is in a hypothetical document.

Around 50 minutes in McGrath concedes it is possible there was no 'historical Jesus' and admits Dr Carrier using Bayes' Theorem to organize thinking is a good and useful thing.

We also get a reference to 'the Brother of The Lord' interpretation.

Towards the end McGrath seems to argue against trying to sort out what is meant by very likely, most likely, likely, not likely etc. Which seems to me that would be useful to avoid being so vague that it's difficult to parse what is being said.

The proximity in time between the writing of christian literature and the putative time of an historical Jesus is mentioned as a problem for mythicism.

There was also discussion toward the end about polemics, which was somehow related to the 'criterion of embarrassment'.

At the very end McGrath says that if he did come out with a mythicist theory he would be showered with honors and money. I certainly don't see those who have already published on mythicism garnering these amazing benefits.

Overall it seemed like I didn't really have anything to learn as this was a conversation between two people who are in agreement and their dialog was too vague to be a benefit to a third party listening in.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43482  Postby RealityRules » Oct 02, 2023 2:09 am

proudfootz wrote:
Stein wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFAHkfP8hkc
Stein
The proximity in time between the writing of Christian literature and the putative time of an historical Jesus is mentioned as a problem for mythicism.

Yet the proximity between the writing of Christian literature and the putative time of an historical Jesus is strained. And based on a lot of special pleading. The reality is the dates of the Pauline letters, the synoptic gospels, the Johannine books in the NT, and the other letters, are all based on strained propositions corralled into strained arguments.

There's renewed interest that at least one of the synoptic gospels - and maybe all of them - were written after Marcion in the mid 2nd century.

There's also views that the Johannine epistles pre-date the Gospel of John. And one wonders about the role of the Secret Apocyphon of John in shaping the Gospel of John (many think the Apocryphon used the Gospel, but one might think that the Gospel would be an advance on the Secret Apocryphon).
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Re: ἀνατολῶν and ἀνατολῇ in Matthew 2:1b, 2:2b and 2:9b

#43483  Postby RealityRules » Oct 02, 2023 2:24 am

Correction
RealityRules wrote:.
Matt 2:1b
1 τοῦ δὲ ἰησοῦ γεννηθέντος ἐν βηθλέεμ ... ἰδοὺ, μάγοι ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν1 παρεγένοντο εἰς ἱεροσόλυμα
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem ... behold, magoi from 'the east'1 came to Jerusalem

Matt 2:2b
2 ... εἴδομεν γὰρ αὐτοῦ τὸν ἀστέρα ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ, καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῶ
    For we have seen his star at the time of its rising, and are come to worship him
          (traditionally: 'in the east')

Matt 2:9b
9 ... καὶ ἰδοὺ ὁ ἀστὴρ,
      ὃν εἶδον ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ, προῆγεν αὐτούς ἕως ἐλθὼν ἐστάθη ἐπάνω οὗ ἦν τὸ παιδίον
...And behold the star,
    .....which they saw at its rising, going before them until coming to stand over 'where was the child'

_ _ _ _ _ _

The magi came from the east (Matt 2:1).

Verse 2 doesn't say "to the west", it just indicates that the appearance of the star, likely it's rising, was the sign that prompted them to "come to worship him," so "at [the time of] its rising," seems to be a better fit than "in the west east."

The main point of v.2:9 is the star going before them: "which they saw at its rising" is a better fit there than "which they saw in in the east," and that reinforces 'at [...] its rising" for v.2

Before v.9 the magi had visited Herod in Jerusalem. In travelling from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, they would have been travelling in a south-southwest direction, so it's very unlikely they would have been following a star 'in the east' to do so. And, again, there's no reference to the star or its light going to the west.


Apparently some scholars agree:

W Bauer, Griechisch-Deutsches Wörterbuch (4th edition, 1952, pp 113-14), expressed the view that the reference in Matt 2:2 is to 'rising': the star of Jesus there is not 'in the east,' but is in the ascendant. Bauer grounds this in the phrase ἐν τή ανατολή having the article and being in the singular.

Brown, Birth of the Messiah, ρ 173, agreed.
As does DA Carson though he says 'the question is extraordinarily complex' (D A Carson, Matthew 1-12 (Grand Rapids, MI Zondervan, 1995), ρ 89.)

And FW Beare says that 'the change from the plural (ανατολών) of verse 1 is decisive for the meaning' as rising (FW Beare, The Gospel according to Matthew (Oxford Blackwell, 1981), 77). Similarly, DA Hagner, in Matthew 1-13 (WBC, Waco Word, 1993), ρ 27.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43484  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 06, 2023 9:24 am

RealityRules wrote:
proudfootz wrote:There's renewed interest that at least one of the synoptic gospels - and maybe all of them - were written after Marcion in the mid 2nd century.


The renewed interest in Marcion in Christian academia is problematic. We only get info on Marcion from the so-called "Early Church Fathers" Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian. When we go and check the earliest extant manuscripts for these identities we find that they are in general a thousand years removed from the century in which they supposedly wrote.

What historical integrity should be placed in these manuscript sources?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43485  Postby RealityRules » Oct 07, 2023 12:54 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
proudfootz wrote:There's renewed interest that at least one of the synoptic gospels - and maybe all of them - were written after Marcion in the mid 2nd century.

The renewed interest in Marcion in Christian academia is problematic. We only get info on Marcion from the so-called "Early Church Fathers" Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian. When we go and check the earliest extant manuscripts for these identities we find that they are in general a thousand years removed from the century in which they supposedly wrote.

What historical integrity should be placed in these manuscript sources?

There's other sources such as Epiphanius, the anonymous Dialogue of Adamantius (aka De recta in Deum fide, dated to the late 3rd to 4th centuries), and other 3rd, 4th and, I believe, 5th c. (or even later) commentaries about Marcionism.

Even though the manuscripts containing these commentaries are also likely to be late, the bulk and network of such commentaries still paints a good picture of the overall dating of Marcionism and other so-called early-Christian heresies and the early orthodox reactions to them.

Even the latest text sensation, the Oxyrhynchus rubbish dump derived fragment known as P.Oxy5575, might be a witness to a Marcionite or other non-orthodox manuscript, such as the Gospel of Peter.

And scholars have shown that, through the commentaries in Irenaeus' Against Heresies, aka On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis (where 'Gnosis' was certain 'knowledge,' not 'Gnostic,' a 17th-18th c. designation), there are
(1) Irenaeus-era non-orthodox texts (and therefore probably pre-Irenaeus era texts), and
(2) post-Irenaeus era versions of the same texts (especially Valentinian texts and texts such as the 'Secret Book/Apocyphon of John' which, iiuc, has been deemed 'Sethian').

And, again, besides Irenaeus, there are other interrelated witnesses to these theological, textual phenomena, such as the Refutation of All Heresies, the writings of Clement of Alexandria, Origin, etc., etc.

Sure, there's likely to have been some editing and re-editing of some texts to embellishment them and the 'history' they represent, but it's too big a network to have been created wholecloth after, say, Constantine.
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Re: Luke 1:78-9

#43486  Postby RealityRules » Oct 07, 2023 1:01 am

RealityRules wrote:Simon Gathercole (2005) 'The Heavenly ἀνατολή (Luke 1:78–9)' The Journal of Theological Studies 56(2); pp.471–488:
Abstract
A consideration of the ἀνατολή figure in Luke 1:78–9 leads to the suggestion that this is not merely a Davidic messiah, but also a heavenly, pre-existent figure. After a review of the main lines of debate in the past century, the discussion is centred on four points. First, the visitation (ἐπισκέψεται) gives a strong impression of a divine figure. Secondly, from the evidence of the LXX and elsewhere in Luke, the advent of the figure ‘from on high’ (ἐξ ὕψους) points clearly to a heavenly origin for the ἀνατολή. Thirdly, though less conclusively, the reference to Isaiah 9 LXX strengthens the impression of an angelic ruler figure. Finally, the ἀνατολή itself is defined as both light-bringer and heavenly messiah, especially in contrast to the Ἀνατολή character in Zech. 6:12, who comes not ‘from on high’ but ‘from beneath’.

Luke 1:78b—79a

... ἐν οἷς ἐπισκέψεται ἡμᾶς ἀνατολὴ ἐξ ὕψους .. (79) ἐπιφᾶναι τοῖς ἐν σκότει καὶ σκιᾷ θανάτου

.en hois episkepsetai hēmas anatolē ex hypsous (79) epiphanai tois en skotei kai skia thanatou

in which will visit us [the] anatolē from on high (79) to shine upon those in darkness & in [the] shadow of death

Luke 1:76 (and 77) refers to the child, Zechariah's child, John, as:

    prophet of [the] Most High } being called to prepare the way (& to give knowledge of salvation)
    προφήτης .Ὑψίστου ............. }
    prophētēs .Hypsistou ........... }


In her 2016 book, Luke's Christology of Divine Identity, Nina Henrichs-Tarasenkova says of Luke 1:78-79:

"readers are encouraged to see Jesus as the Davidic Messiah whose identity is derived from the divine identity of YHWH himself and whose function as the dawn of the eschatological times goes beyond what was expected of a mere Davidide."

She elaborated:
in the LXX,ὕψους is understood as the place of YHWH’s habitation, from which YHWH looks on his people with favor and delivers them (eg., 2 Sam. 22.17; Ps. 18.16 [17.17, LXX]) rather than a place from which the Davidic messiah comes.44

This understanding of ὕψους is familiar to Luke for he speaks [elsewhere] of YHWH’s Spirit coming from heaven as ‘the power from on high’ (ἐξ ὕψους δύναμιν, Lk. 24.49; cf. 3.21-22). By claiming that ἀνατολὴ comes from the unique place of YHWH’s habitation,44 ie., ὕψους, Luke not only identifies Jesus as the Davidic messiah but also reinterprets this designation in light of Jesus’ unique relationship to YHWH—a relationship that was established through the Holy Spirit, ie., the power from on high, who came down upon Mary (1.35; cf. Acts 1.8) and enabled her to conceive. Luke thus emphasizes that Jesus’ identity should be derived from the divine identity of YHWH rather than from the identity of David’s descendant Joseph ...

Luke discourages his readers from understanding Jesus as a mere Davidide. Not only does he attribute to Jesus the function of visitation (ἐπισκέψεται, Lk. 1.79; cf. 7.16; Acts 15.14), which earlier, in the Benedictus,* he attributed to YHWH himself (Lk. 1.68), and which in the OT is attributed to YHWH alone (e.g., Gen. 21.1; Exod. 4.31; 1 Sam. 2.21; Lam. 4.22); but also he echoes, in his description of Jesus’ function, OT passages that identify the one who brings light, peace, and, therefore, salvation with YHWH himself (Isa. 42.6-7; Ps. 107.10-14 ) or with one who is more than a mere Davidide (Isa. 9.6-7).

Therefore, readers are encouraged to connect Jesus’ function as rising light, ie., dawn, that illuminates darkness and guides people out of oppression and into the way of peace with YHWH’s function as Savior for those who fear him (cf. Isa. 60.1-20; Mal. 4.1-5). Thus, readers are encouraged to see Jesus as the Davidic Messiah whose identity is derived from the divine identity of YHWH himself; and whose function as the dawn of the eschatological times goes beyond what was expected of a mere Davidide.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
44 Johnson, Luke, p. 47, states: ‘“From on high” means simply “from God”.’
NTH: "..the expression ἐξ ὕψους is never used of YHWH himself but of YHWH’s place of habitation (Sir. 16.17), from which he sends help (2 Sam. 22.17; Pss. 18.16 [17.17, LXX]; 144.7 [143.7, LXX]) or judgment (Lam. 1.13).."


    * aka 'Zechariah's song,' ie. the longer passage of Luke 1:67-79 which, as Henrichs-Tarasenkova says, uses "OT passages that identify the one who brings light, peace, and, therefore, salvation with YHWH himself" (verses 68–75 is a song of thanksgiving for the realization of Messianic hopes of or for the Jewish nation; vv. 76-79 are about John (the Baptist) as a prophet who will "prepare the way for him")
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43487  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 07, 2023 11:22 am

RealityRules wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
proudfootz wrote:There's renewed interest that at least one of the synoptic gospels - and maybe all of them - were written after Marcion in the mid 2nd century.

The renewed interest in Marcion in Christian academia is problematic. We only get info on Marcion from the so-called "Early Church Fathers" Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian. When we go and check the earliest extant manuscripts for these identities we find that they are in general a thousand years removed from the century in which they supposedly wrote.

What historical integrity should be placed in these manuscript sources?


There's other sources such as Epiphanius, the anonymous Dialogue of Adamantius (aka De recta in Deum fide, dated to the late 3rd to 4th centuries), and other 3rd, 4th and, I believe, 5th c. (or even later) commentaries about Marcionism.

Even though the manuscripts containing these commentaries are also likely to be late, the bulk and network of such commentaries still paints a good picture of the overall dating of Marcionism and other so-called early-Christian heresies and the early orthodox reactions to them.


I reserve the right to be critically skeptical of the traditional history of Christian origins until I can determine some genuine physical primary evidence supporting a number of propositions. The physical evidence underpinning chronology is fundamental. We have very little evidence of a physical Christian footprint until at least te 3rd century. We have no C14 radiocarbon dates before the 4th century. In the 4th century the evidence explodes across the board.

Even the latest text sensation, the Oxyrhynchus rubbish dump derived fragment known as P.Oxy5575, might be a witness to a Marcionite or other non-orthodox manuscript, such as the Gospel of Peter.


There are some indications that this 5575 is not as early as has been proposed - to the late 2nd century. A 4th century date cannot really be excluded. This is an interesting publication of 5575 (and now also see 4009) evoking a range of responses.

https://brentnongbri.com/2023/09/09/the ... y-87-5575/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... A1A4E57B8D

https://brentnongbri.com/2023/09/30/p-o ... e-copyist/

And scholars have shown that, through the commentaries in Irenaeus' Against Heresies, aka On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis (where 'Gnosis' was certain 'knowledge,' not 'Gnostic,' a 17th-18th c. designation), there are
(1) Irenaeus-era non-orthodox texts (and therefore probably pre-Irenaeus era texts), and
(2) post-Irenaeus era versions of the same texts (especially Valentinian texts and texts such as the 'Secret Book/Apocyphon of John' which, iiuc, has been deemed 'Sethian').

And, again, besides Irenaeus, there are other interrelated witnesses to these theological, textual phenomena, such as the Refutation of All Heresies, the writings of Clement of Alexandria, Origin, etc., etc.


Irenaeus provides the classic study of why we should be cautious of the material we find in the writings of "the Church Fathers". He was supposed to be a Greek writer but no Greek manuscripts were preserved. We have everything in Latin in manuscripts archived by the Latin church. Earliest extant manuscript 10th/11the century. Two hundred years earlier the Latin Church forgery mill known as "Pseudo-Isidore began forging all sorts of stuff. Stuff which was accepted as genuine for many centuries.

Clearly we are dealing with an organisation and an industry. The Holy Relic Trade was in full swing. I refuse to believe any of this church archive propaganda without some physical evidence. I'd like to be sure that the Nicene and later church have not fabricated a Big Lie.


Sure, there's likely to have been some editing and re-editing of some texts to embellishment them and the 'history' they represent, but it's too big a network to have been created wholecloth after, say, Constantine.


The proposition is that the Nicene Church fabricated its historical origins. What physical evidence disconfirms this proposition? The date estimates provided by paleography in isolation are not science. I can find nothing before the 3rd century at least. It is a sparse scattering of physical evidence.

And the way I look at it is that the fabrication and forgery went on from the 4th century and it did not stop. I believe this skeptism is healthy. I do not trust the church industry between the 4th and the 21st century in matters relating to historical integrity. "Holy Bones Holy Dust" makes a good read. The Christians put the Bible in the back office while they trotted out the relics of a dead saint or bones of a legendary martyr. This stuff is not based on history. Yet the Holy Relic industry flourished for over a thousand years since it was kick-started by the Roman church under Damasus.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43488  Postby RealityRules » Oct 07, 2023 1:19 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:We have very little evidence of a physical Christian footprint until at least the 3rd century

As one would expect with either the traditional view or a Marcionite & others start to Christianity, but probably more so with the latter (where ‘others’ = Simonian’s, Sethians, Valentinians, Carpocratians, etc.)
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An angel ascends from the rising sun in Revelation 7:2

#43489  Postby RealityRules » Oct 08, 2023 9:37 am

Revelation 7:1-2:


1 ... I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree


2 καὶ εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον ἀναβαίνοντα1 ἀπὸ ἀνατολῆς2 ἡλίου,2 ἔχοντα σφραγῖδα3 θεοῦ ζῶντος: καὶ ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ τοῖς τέσσαρσιν ἀγγέλοις, οἷς ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς ἀδικῆσαι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν θάλασσαν

2 And I saw another angel ascending1 from the rising2 sun,2 having the seal3 of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom power was given to hurt the earth and the sea:


3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”


    1 ἀναβαίνω, anabainō (Strong's G305)
    2 Many English translations have "from the east," though many others have "from the rising of the sun" or "at sunrise" or the like (and some have both). See a long list of English translations here (biblegateway)
    3 σφραγῖδα, sphragida, appears mostly in Revelation (and 3 Pauline letters) (see https://biblehub.com/greek/4973.htm)
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Re: 'Heōsphoros' as ἀνατέλλων and the apostle in Isaiah 14:12

#43490  Postby RealityRules » Oct 12, 2023 7:50 am

Isaiah 14.12:
πῶς ἐξέπεσεν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ὁ ἑωσφόρος,1 ὁ πρωὶ ἀνατέλλων συνετρίβη εἰς τὴν γῆν, ὁ ἀποστέλλων πρὸς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη

pōs exepesen ek tou ouranou o Heōsphoros,1 ho prōi anatellōn syntribō eis ton gēn, ho apostellón pros panta ta ethne

how fell out of heaven the Heōsphoros,1 the early riser fell to the earth, the apostle to all the nations

https://biblehub.com/sepd/isaiah/14.htm



Also Isaiah 14.13:
σὺ δὲ εἶπας ἐν τῇ διανοίᾳ σου, 'εἰς τῇ οὐρανὸν ἀναβήσομαι, ἐπάνω τῇ astḗr τῇ οὐρανὸν θήσω τῇ θρόνον μου ...'

You said in your heart, 'unto the heaven I shall ascend, upon the stars of the heaven I will put my throne ...'


and 14.14:
'αναβήσομαι επάνω των νεφελών, έσομαι όμοιος τω υψίστω'

'I will ascend upon the clouds, I will be likened to the highest'

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43491  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 13, 2023 2:07 pm

RealityRules wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:We have very little evidence of a physical Christian footprint until at least the 3rd century

As one would expect with either the traditional view or a Marcionite & others start to Christianity, but probably more so with the latter (where ‘others’ = Simonian’s, Sethians, Valentinians, Carpocratians, etc.)


I have moved on from Constantine

https://www.academia.edu/107407228/Publ ... _R_F_Brown
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: rising or ascending from the rising

#43492  Postby RealityRules » Oct 15, 2023 12:46 am

RealityRules wrote:
Revelation 7:1-2:
2 καὶ εἶδον ἄλλον ἄγγελον ἀναβαίνοντα1 ἀπὸ ἀνατολῆς2 ἡλίου,2 ἔχοντα σφραγῖδα3 θεοῦ ζῶντος: καὶ ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ τοῖς τέσσαρσιν ἀγγέλοις, οἷς ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς ἀδικῆσαι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν θάλασσαν

2 And I saw another angel ascending1 from the rising2 sun,2 having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom power was given to hurt the earth and the sea:

3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”


    1 ἀναβαίνω, anabainō (Strong's G305)
    2 Many English translations have "from the east," though many others have "from the rising of the sun" or "at sunrise" or the like (and some have both). See a long list of English translations here (biblegateway)

So that's now three cases of 'double rising' or ascending from the rising; or aspirations thereof. The other two being:

RealityRules wrote:
Isaiah 41:2:
τίς ἐξήγειρενa ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶνa δικαιοσύνην ἐκάλεσεν αὐτὴν κατὰ πόδας αὐτοῦ, καὶ πορεύσεται δώσει ἐναντίον ἐθνῶν, καὶ βασιλεῖς ἐκστήσει, καὶ δώσει εἰς γῆν τὰς μαχαίρας αὐτῶν, καὶ ὡς φρύγανα ἐξωσμένα τὰ τόξα αὐτῶν

A certain One shall rise upa from the risinga [in] righteousnessb and call them 'to foot', and [the certain One] shall go forth/march against nations, and displace kings, and [re]turn to the ground their swords, and cast out the bows / arcs of them


    a it's almost—or is—a tautology here: it could mean 'raising up from the rising,' eg. with extra force for extra intent; eg., raise up more righteousness

      b or, perhaps, "from the dawning righteousness"

RealityRules wrote:
Jeremiah 49:31:
ἀνάστηθι3 καὶ ἀνάβηθι,1 ἐπ᾽ ἔθνος εὐσταθοῦν καθήμενον εἰς ἀναψυχήν, οἷς οὔκ εἰσιν θύραι, οὐ βάλανοι, οὐ μοχλοί, μόνοι καταλύουσιν

Rise up3 and rise again,1 and be a nation that dwells in security, where there are no doors, no bulwarks, no levers, only catalysts.


    1 ἀναβαίνω, anabainō (Strong's G305)

    3 ἀνίστημι, anistémi: [also] to raise up, to rise, arise (Strong's 450)
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Re: ἀποστέλλω : apostéllō

#43493  Postby RealityRules » Oct 16, 2023 5:08 am

RealityRules wrote:Isaiah 14.12:
πῶς ἐξέπεσεν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ὁ ἑωσφόρος,1 ὁ πρωὶ ἀνατέλλων] συνετρίβη εἰς τὴν γῆν, ὁ ἀποστέλλων πρὸς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη

pōs exepesen ek tou ouranou o Heōsphoros,1 ho prōi anatellōn syntribō eis ton gēn, ho apostellón pros panta ta ethne

how fell out of heaven the Heōsphoros,1 the early riser fell to the earth, the apostle to all the nations

https://biblehub.com/sepd/isaiah/14.htm


1 Heōsphoros is a personification of the Morning Star, perhaps Venus; variably the Morning Star or Lucifer

ἀποστέλλω - apostellō - occurs 506 time in the LXX in 60 unique form(s)

It is universally said to be a verb.
Its etymology is said to be from ἀπό (G575), a preposition, and στέλλω (G4724), a verb.

eg. Psalm 147.15 (LXX 147.4)
ἀποστέλλων τὸ λόγιον αὐτοῦ τῇ γῇ ἕως τάχους δραμεῖται ὁ λόγος αὐτοῦ

'He'(?) sent forth his oracle, they are receptive to the depths of the 'word' of him

    (γῇ = (earth), land, region, inhabitants of a region)

    or perhaps: "the apostle's oracle, they are/will be deeply receptive to his logos"

Jeremiah 25.4 has it twice and at least one of the uses has the sense of apostles being sent:
καὶ ἀπέστελλον πρὸς ὑμᾶς τοὺς δούλους μου τοὺς προφήτας ὄρθρου ἀποστέλλων ...

'And sent unto you my servants, the prophets of the righteousness sent forth unto you ...

or
And sent to you my servants, the prophets' righteous apostles ...


2 Chronicles 36.15 may be translated thus:
καὶ ἐξαπέστειλεν κύριος ὁ θεὸς τῶν πατέρων αὐτῶν ἐν χειρὶ προφητῶν ὀρθρίζων καὶ ἀποστέλλων τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ ...

And the Lord God their Father sent forth by his hand his prophets of the righteous and apostles [of] his angels ...


    ἐξαπέστειλεν is from ἐξαποστέλλω - exapostellō (G1821) - and also means "to send forth," "to send away." It occurs 236 times in 43 unique form(s) in the LXX and 13 times in 4 unique form(s) in the "mGNT"

Isaiah 18.2 starts
ὁ ἀποστέλλων ἐν θαλάσσῃ ὅμηρα

That may be translated as
the apostle in/among [the realm of] the sea of Homer

    Although ὅμηρα - hómēra - more likely means 'surety' or treaty/ agreement
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ἀποστέλλω - apostellō also occurs frequently in the "morphological Greek New Testament" - 132 time in 34 unique form(s)

The first is in Mark 1:2:
Καθὼς γέγραπται τῷ ἐν Ἠσαΐᾳ τῷ προφήτῃ : Ἰδοὺ, ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου [supposedly1 Malachi 3.1]1

Kathōs gegraptai en tō Ēsaia tō prophētē : Idou apostéllō ton angelon mou [supposedly Malachi 3.1]1
the traditional translation:
"As it was written by Isaiah the prophet : Behold 'I' send the angel of me"


      if apostéllō here were the noun apóstolos :

              "Behold, the apostle, the angel of me"

              ie. Behold, the apostle, my angel
              ( "I send" doesn't seem right : especial without ἐγὼ; see below )
    1 Malachi 3:1 LXX has:
    ἰδοὺ, ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου
    'Behold, I will send my angel' : https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/mal/3/1/s_928001

    ie. the verb ἐξαποστέλλω, exapostellō, not ἀποστέλλω - apostellō
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Re: the noun ἀπόστολος - apóstolos - is from apostéllō

#43494  Postby RealityRules » Oct 17, 2023 12:08 am

ἀπόστολος - apóstolos - apostle - is the noun, from Strong's 649, ie. from apostéllō ("to commission, send forth")


ἀπόστολος occurs in the LXX too, eg., 1 Kings 14.6b according to https://studybible.info/interlinear/1%20Kings%2014:*

εγώ ειμι απόστολος προς σε
translated as:
I am an 'envoy' to you


    (with the subsequent σκληρός : "I am a harsh 'envoy' to you")
* Other providers of the LXX claim the verses 1 Kings 14:1-20 are not in the LXX, yet they acknowledge that vv. 14:21-31 are

From 1 Kings 14:14:
και αναστήσει κύριος εαυτώ βασιλέα επί Ισραήλ
And the lord will raise up for himself a king over Israel
https://studybible.info/interlinear/1%20Kings%2014


Thayer's Greek Lexicon notes ἀπόστολος for שָׁלוּחַ in 1 Kings 14:6 :

1. a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders (Herodotus 1, 21; 5, 38; for שָׁלוּחַ in 1 Kings 14:6 (Alex.); rabbinical שְׁלִיחַ): John 13:16 (where ὁ ἀπόστολος and ὁ πέμψας αὐτόν ["the one having sent" ὁ ἀπόστολος] are contrasted); ...

https://biblehub.com/greek/652.htm


Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says שָׁלוּחַ - shalach - means "to send"; and elaborates:

1 send: human subject, especially

    a. accusative of person
2 send: subject ׳י (God) ...

    a. accusative of person Genesis 45:5; (E; לִפְנֵי person), 1 Samuel 15:18 (בְּדָ֑רֶךְ), + אֶל person 2 Samuel 12:1; accusative of angel, לִפְנֵי person Genesis 24:7; Exodus 33:2 (both J), אֵת with Genesis 24:40(J), etc.; with accusative of person = commission Exodus 3:12 (E), Judges 6:14; Isaiah 6:8 ...
3 stretch out, especially accusative hand:

    c. accusative hand, subject angel, + accusative of location, infinitive purpose 2 Samuel 24:16, cherub, אֶל of thing, מִן local Ezekiel 10:7; adversary, אֶל person Job 1:12; subject angel, accusative rod Judges 6:21.
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7971.htm


Further down:
1 send off, away, human subject:

a. accusative of person + ל location Joshua 24:28 (E), Judges 7:8; 1 Samuel 10:23 +; + ל person Jeremiah 48:12; + הּ#NAME? Judges 12:9 and (c. infinitive purpose) Genesis 28:6 (P) ...

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7971.htm

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Re: the noun ἀπόστολος - apóstolos - is from apostéllō

#43495  Postby RealityRules » Oct 17, 2023 2:13 am

RealityRules wrote:
2 send: subject ׳י (God) ...

    a. accusative of person Genesis 45:5; (E; לִפְנֵי person), 1 Samuel 15:18 (בְּדָ֑רֶךְ), + אֶל person 2 Samuel 12:1; accusative of angel, לִפְנֵי person Genesis 24:7; Exodus 33:2 (both J), אֵת with Genesis 24:40(J), etc.; with accusative of person = commission Exodus 3:12 (E), Judges 6:14; Isaiah 6:8 ...
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7971.htm


Exodus 3:12-13 LXX:

12 εἶπεν δὲ ὁ θεὸς Μωυσεῖ λέγων, ὅτι ἔσομαι μετὰ σοῦ, καὶ τοῦτό σοι τὸ σημεῖον, ὅτι ἐγώ σε ἐξαποστέλλω1 ἐν τῷ ἐξαγαγεῖν σε τὸν λαόν μου ἐξ Αἰγύπτου, καὶ λατρεύσετε τῷ θεῷ ἐν τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ

12 And the god Moses said, I am come after thee, and this is the sign unto thee, that I will send thee forth to my people out of Egypt, and ye shall worship to God in this mountain

13 καὶ εἶπεν Μωυσῆς πρὸς τὸν θεόν ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐλεύσομαι πρὸς τοὺς υἱοὺς Ισραηλ καὶ ἐρῶ πρὸς αὐτούς ὁ θεὸς τῶν πατέρων ὑμῶν ἀπέσταλκέν,2 με πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐρωτήσουσίν με τί ὄνομα αὐτῷ τί ἐρῶ πρὸς αὐτούς

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, I go unto the children of Israel, and ask of them, O God the Father [who] hath sent me, 'what name he shall call them, and what shall he ask of them?'


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Sending [forth] the Angel

#43496  Postby RealityRules » Oct 18, 2023 12:58 am

2 Chronicles 36.15
καὶ ἐξαπέστειλεν κύριος ὁ θεὸς τῶν πατέρων αὐτῶν ἐν χειρὶ προφητῶν ὀρθρίζων καὶ ἀποστέλλων τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ
And the Lord God their Father sent forth in the hands of the prophets of old and sent forth his angels
And the Lord God their Father sent forth from the hands of the prophets of old, namely he sent forth [his] angels
And the Lord God their Father sent forth from the hands of the prophets of old, namely his apostles the angels



Malachi 3:1 LXX:
ἰδοὺ, ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου

Mark 1:2:
Ἰδοὺ, ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου


Revelation 1:1-2
Θεός...ἐσήμανεν [ἀποκάλυψις] ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ, Ἰωάννῃ,
God...signified [the apocalypse] [by] sending through1 his angel to his servant, John,

2 ὃς ἐμαρτύρησεν τὸν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὅσα εἶδεν
. . . who witnessed the Logos of God . . . and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as much as he saw

Revelation 22:6
... ὁ Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς τῶν πνευμάτων τῶν προφητῶν ἀπέστειλεν τὸν ἄγγελον αὐτοῦ ...
... the Lord the God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel ...


Matthew 13:41
ἀποστελεῖ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου τοὺς ἀγγέλους
"I will send forth the Son of Man the angel"

Matthew 24:42
...ἀποστελεῖ τοὺς ἀγγέλους ...

Luke 9:52
... ἀπέστειλεν ἀγγέλους ...

Acts 7:35 (as being recounted by Stephen)
Μωϋσῆς...ἀπέσταλκεν σὺν χειρὶ ἀγγέλου
. Moses ... "sent by the hand of an angel"

Acts 11:13
... τὸν ἄγγελον...Ἀπόστειλον εἰς Ἰόππην ...
... the angel...send forth to Joppa ...

and 1 Peter 1:12
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . εὐαγγελισαμένων ὑμᾶς ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ ἀποσταλέντι ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ, εἰς ἃ ἐπιθυμοῦσιν ἄγγελοι παρακύψαι
"having proclaimed good news to you on/by the Holy Spirit [having been] sent from heaven, to whom angels desire to bow"
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Use of 'apostle' is rare before the New Testament

#43497  Postby RealityRules » Oct 22, 2023 5:37 am

These are the only applications I could find:

Herodotus 1.21
ὁ μὲν δὴ ἀπόστολος ἐς τὴν Μίλητον ἦν
the one who is the apostle to the Miletons [inhabitants of Miletus(?)]

Herodotus 5.58
ἐς Λακεδαίμονα τριήρεϊ ἀπόστολος ἐγίνετο, ἀπήρχετο ὡς ἀπεσταλμένος εἰς Λακεδαίμονα
He was a threefold apostle to Lacedaemon, being sent as an envoy to Lacedaemon

Plato's Epistle 7.346a
ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις πλοίοις ἐμβὰς διενοούμην πλεῖν, τεθυμωμένος, πάσχειν τε οἰόμενος δεῖν, εἰ διακωλυοίμην, ὁτιοῦν, ἐπειδὴ περιφανῶς ἠδίκουν μὲν οὐδέν
I was in the apostles' boat on the sea, and I was suffering and being seen to suffer, and being mocked because they are proudly not to blame
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0163%3Aletter%3D7%3Apage%3D346

Josephus Antiquities 17.11.1

[300] ἀφίκετο εἰς τὴν Ῥώμην πρεσβεία Ἰουδαίων Οὐάρου, τὸν ἀπόστολον αὐτῶν τῷ ἔθνει ἐπικεχωρηκότος ὑπὲρ αἰτήσεως αὐτονομίας. καὶ ἦσαν οἱ μὲν πρέσβεις οἱ ἀποσταλέντες γνώμῃ τοῦ ἔθνους πεντήκοντα, συνίσταντο δὲ αὐτοῖς τῶν ἐπὶ Ῥώμης Ἰουδαίων ὑπὲρ ὀκτακισχίλιοι.

[300] There arrived in Rome an embassy of the Judeans [through] Ouarou [Varus], the apostle/s from their nation who have come with a request for autonomy. And the embassy who brought the opinion of the nation were fifty, and they were joined by the Roman Judeans of eight thousand.

http://www.biblical.ie/page.php?fl=jose ... ies/AJGk17


From the English and Greek sections in the Liddell, Scott, Jones [LSJ] Ancient Greek Lexicon
I.A. : [see Herodotus above]
I.b. commander of a naval force, Hsch

II.1. ἀπόστολον ἀφιέναι [the apostle arrives] Dim. 3.5 [&/or] 18.80,107 [&/or] IG2.809b190
.2. colony, D.H.9.59.
.3. ἀποστολή in Jospehus A.J.17.11.1 : see above
.4. ἀπόστολον, τό, with or without πλοῖον, Plato Ep.346a [see above], Ps.-Hdt. Vit.Hom.19.
.5. ἀπόστολος, ὁ, order for dispatch, of a vessel, CPHerm.6.11 (iii A.D., pl.), PAmh. 2.138.10 (iv A.D.), cf. Dig.49.6.1.
.6. export-licence, PGnom.162 (ii A.D.)
.7. gen. dub., cargo dispatched by order, POxy.522.1,al. (ii A.D.), PTeb.486 (ii/iii A.D.)


[and, similarly, for the English: https://greek_english.en-academic.com/8 ... E%BF%CF%82]


    nb. #s 5-7 seem to be ii - iv A.D.
Walter Bauer in his Greek-English Lexicon relates the term to the rabbinical idea of a Shaliah, or agent: "Judaism had an office known as apostle (שליח)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle#Terminology
https://www.google.com.au/books/edition ... =en&gbpv=0

The online Jewish Encylcopedia notes
the same as sheliaḦ or sheluaḦ in Hebrew, one invested with representative power. "Apostoloi" was the official name given to the men sent by the rulers of Jerusalem to collect the half-shekel tax for the Temple, the tax itself being called "apostolé." See Theod. Reinach, "Textes Grecs et Romains, etc.," 1895, p. 208; and also Grätz, "Gesch. der Juden," iv. 476, note 21, where Eusebius is quoted as saying: "It is even yet a custom among the Jews to call those who carry about circular letters from their rulers by the name of apostles" ...

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles ... postleship

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Re: Use of 'apostle' in Herodotus

#43498  Postby RealityRules » Oct 24, 2023 7:27 am

RealityRules wrote:Herodotus 1.21
ὁ μὲν δὴ ἀπόστολος ἐς τὴν Μίλητον ἦν
the one who is [an] apostle to the Miletons [inhabitants of Miletus(?)]

Here's Herodotus' The Histories 1.21:
Ἀλυάττης δέ, ὡς οἱ ταῦτα ἐξαγγέλθη, αὐτίκα ἔπεμπε κήρυκα ἐς Μίλητον βουλόμενος σπονδὰς ποιήσασθαι Θρασυβούλῳ τε καὶ Μιλησίοισι χρόνον ὅσον ἂν τὸν νηὸν οἰκοδομέῃ. ὃ μὲν δὴ ἀπόστολος ἐς τὴν Μίλητον ἦν, Θρασύβουλος δὲ σαφέως προπεπυσμένος πάντα λόγον, καὶ εἰδὼς τὰ Ἀλυάττης μέλλοι ποιήσειν, μηχανᾶται τοιάδε· https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:c ... -grc2:1.21

When the reply was brought to Alyattes, he promptly sent a herald into Miletus, offering to make a libation with Thrasybulus and the Milesians during his rebuilding of the temple. Then, he went as an [apostle] to Miletus, but Thrasybulus, forewarned of the whole matter, and knowing what Alyattes meant to do, devised [a] plan ...
[modified from https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... ection%3D1]



RealityRules wrote:Herodotus 5.58
ἐς Λακεδαίμονα τριήρεϊ, ἀπόστολος ἐγίνετο, ἀπήρχετο ὡς ἀπεσταλμένοςεἰς Λακεδαίμονα
He was a threefold apostle to Lacedaemon, being sent as an envoy to Lacedaemon

Here's Herodotus' The Histories 5.38.2 (ie. not 5.58)
(and the second half above seems to be an incorrect, double inclusion [perhaps from a different version(?)]):

Ἀρισταγόρης δὲ ὁ Μιλήσιος ὡς τοὺς τυράννους κατέπαυσε, στρατηγοὺς ἐν ἑκάστῃ τῶν πολίων κελεύσας ἑκάστους καταστῆσαι; δεύτερα αὐτὸς ἐς Λακεδαίμονα τριήρεϊ,1 ἀπόστολος ἐγίνετο· ἔδεε γὰρ δὴ συμμαχίης τινός οἱ μεγάλης ἐξευρεθῆναι. https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:c ... 82&qk=form

Aristagoras of Miletus, after doing away with the tyrants, ordered all the peoples to set up governors in each city; then he went to Lacedaemon in a trireme,1 becoming an apostle. For it was necessary for him to find some strong ally
[modified from https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... ection%3D2]


    1 τριήρεϊ, triērēi/triērēs, = a trireme, a type of galley ship used by ancient maritime civilizations on the Mediterranean Sea. The name trireme derives from three rows of oars.
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Re: In Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon

#43499  Postby RealityRules » Oct 26, 2023 10:47 am

RealityRules wrote: Walter Bauer in his Greek-English Lexicon relates the term to the rabbinical idea of a Shaliah, or agent: "Judaism had an office known as apostle (שליח)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle#Terminology
https://www.google.com.au/books/edition ... =en&gbpv=0

Unfortunately Google Books doesn't provide access to the relevant pages.
Here's some excerpts from A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (4 ed.), 2021:
ἀποστέλλω ⟦apostéllō⟧ fut. ἀποστελῶ; 1 aor. ἀπέστειλα; ἀποστείλω Ac 7:34 (Ex 3:10) is perhaps not hortat. subj. but pres. ind. as in the Pontic dial. (Thumb 18; s. M-M s.v.) or fut. (see v.l.); pf. ἀπέσταλκα, pass. ἀπέσταλμαι; 2 aor. pass. ἀπεστάλην (Soph., Hdt.+). 1 to dispatch someone for the achievement of some objective, send away/out (Diod S 34 + 35, 14) ... (of the divine mission, espe. of prophets, very oft. in the LXX; on the Heb. שָׁלִחיַ see L.Kopf, VetusT 7, ’58, 207–9 and ἀπόστολος 2c.—Philo, Migr. Abr. 22; Just., Apol. I, 63,5; Dial. 75,3. The Cynic ἀπὸ τ. Διὸς ἀπέσταλται Epict. 3, 22, 23; cp. 46.—Cornutus 16 p. 30, 19 ὁ Ἑρμῆς ὁ λόγος ὤν, ὸ̔ν ἀπέστειλαν πρὸς ἡμᾶς ἐξ οὐρανοῦ οἱ θεοί) ... (for a prob. mystic sense cp. Philo, Poster. Cai. 73; difft. ViIs 2 [p.69, 5 Sch.].—The abs. ὀ ἀπεσταλμένος [Diod S 16, 50, 2] = the emissary) ...

2 to dispatch a message, send, have something done ... B. When used with other verbs, ἀ. often functions like our verbal auxiliary ‘have’ and means simply that the action in question has been performed by someone else (Gen 31:4; 41:8, 14; Ex 9:27; 2 Km 11:5 al.; X., Cyr. 3,1,6; Plut., Mor. 11c μεταπέμψας ἀνεῖλε τ. Θεόκριτον) ἀποστείλας ἀνεῖλεν he had (them) killed ... C. ... ἀ. τὸν λόγον send out a message (Ps 106:20; 147:7; cp. PLips 64,42 τὸ περὶ τούτου ἀποσταλὲν πρόσταγμα) Ac 10:36; 13:26 v.l.; cp. Lk 24:49. Pass. Ac 28:28 (s. a above). D. abs. μήπως ἀποστείλῃ ὁ δεσπότης ἐφ’ ἡμᾶς lest the Lord dispatch (his wrath) upon us GJs 7:1 (Ezk 7:7).—See lit. s.v. ἀπόστολος.—B. 710. DELG s.v. στέλλω A. M-M. TW.

ἀποστολή, ῆς, ἡ ⟦apostolḗ⟧ (s. ἀποστέλλω; Eur., Thu., et al. in var. mngs.; Diod S 36, 1 [ἀ. στρατιωτῶν=‘sending out’ of troops]; ins, pap, LXX; Test.Napht 2:1; Ep.Arist 15; Jos., Ant. 20, 50, Vi. 268) ... only of God’s elite emissaries for the Christian message office of a special emissary, apostleship, office of an apostle, assignment w. διακονία Ac 1:25. Used esp. by Paul to designate his position ...

ἀποστολικός, ή, όν ⟦apostolikós⟧ (s. ἀποστέλλω; schol. on Pind., P. 2, 6b, I. 2 ins a; Proclus in Phot., Bibl. p. 322b; Athen. 14, 631d [of a dance style: relating to a diplomatic mission?]) ...

ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ ⟦apóstolos⟧ (s. ἀποστέλλω). In older Gk. (Lysias, Demosth.) and later (e.g. Posidon.: 87 Fgm. 53 p. 257, 21 Jac. [Strabo 3, 5, 5]) ὁ ἀ. is a naval expedition, prob. also its commander (Anecd. Gr. 217, 26). τὸ ἀπόστολον with (Plato Ep. 7, 346a) or without (Vi. Hom. 19) πλοῖον means a ship ready for departure. In its single occurrence in Jos. (Ant. 17, 300; it is not found elsewher in Jewish-Gk. lit.) it prob. means ‘sending out’; in pap mostly ‘bill of lading’ (s. Preisigke, Fachwörter 1915), less freq. ‘certificate of clearance (at a port)’ (BGU V §64 [II a.d.]=Gnomon des Idios Logos). It can also be ‘letter of authorization (relating to shipping)’: Mitt-Wilck. I/2, 443, 10 (15 a.d.); PHerm 6, 11f (cp. Dig. 49, 6, 1 litteras dimissorias sive apostolos). In contrast, in isolated cases it refers to persons who are dispatched for a specific purpose, and the context determines the status or function expressed in such Eng. terms as ‘ambassador, delegate, messenger’ (Hdt. 1,21; 5,38; Synesius, Providence 2,3 p.122a ἀπόστολοι of ordinary messengers; Sb 7241, 48; BGU 1741, 6 [64 b.c.]; 3 Km 14:6A; Is 18:2 Sym.). Cp. K.Lake, The Word Ἀ.: The Beginnings of Christianity. I 5, ’33, 46–52. It is this isolated usage that is preferred in the NT w. nuances peculiar to its lit. But the extensive use of ἀποστέλλω in documents relating to pers. of merit engaged in administrative service prob. encouraged NT use of the noun, thus in effect disavowing assoc. w. the type of itinerant philosophers that evoked the kind of pejorative term applied by Paul’s audience Ac 17:18. 1 of messengers without extraordinary status delegate, envoy, messenger (opp. ὁ πέμψας) J 13:16. Of Epaphroditus, messenger of the Philippians Phil 2:25.—2 Cor 8:23. 2 of messengers with extraordinary status, esp. of God’s messenger, envoy (cp. Epict. 3, 22, 23 of Cynic wise men: ἄγγελος ἀπὸ τ. Διὸς ἀπέσταλται). a of prophets Lk 11:49; Rv 18:20; cp. 2:2; Eph 3:5. b of Christ (w. ἀρχιερεύς) Hb 3:1 (cp. ApcEsdr 2:1 p. 25, 29 T.; Just., Apo. I, 12,9; the extra-Christian firman Sb 7240, 4f οὐκ ἔστιν θεὸς εἰ μὴ ὁ θεὸς μόνος. Μααμετ ἀπόστολος θεοῦ). GWetter, ‘D. Sohn Gottes’ 1916, 26ff. c but predominately in the NT (of the apologists, only Just.) of a group of highly honored believers w. a special function as God’s envoys. Also Judaism had a figure known as apostle ( שָׁלִחיַ ; Schürer III 124f w. sources and lit.; Billerb. III 1926, 2–4; JTruron, Theology 51, ’48, 166–70; 341–43; GDix, ibid. 249–56; 385f; μόνος. Μααμετ ἀπόστολος θεοῦ). GWetter, ‘D. Sohn Gottes’ 1916, 26ff. c but predominately in the NT (of the apologists, only Just.) of a group of highly honored believers w. a special function as God’s envoys. Also Judaism had a figure known as apostle ( שָׁלִחיַ ; Schürer III 124f w. sources and lit.; Billerb. III 1926, 2–4; JTruron, Theology 51, ’48, 166–70; 341–43; GDix, ibid. 249–56; 385f; JBühner, art. ἄ. in EDNT I 142–46).

In Christian circles, at first ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ ⟦apóstolos⟧ denoted one who proclaimed the gospel, and was not strictly limited: Paul freq. calls himself an ἀἀπόστολος: Ro 1:1; 11:13; 1 Cor 1:1; 9:1f; 15:9; 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1; Tit 1:1.—1 Cl 47:1. Of Barnabas, Acts 14:14; 15:2. Of Andronicus and Junia (less prob. Junias, s. Ἰουνία) Ro 16:7. Of James, the Lord’s brother, Gal 1:19. Of Peter, 1 Pt 1:1; 2 Pt 1:1. Then esp. of the 12 apostles οἱ δώδεκα ἀ. (cp. ParJer 9:20; Asc.Is 3:21; 4:3) Mt 10:2; Mk 3:14; Lk 22:14 ... The Holy Scriptures named w. the ap. 2 Cl 14:2 (sim. ApcSed 14:10 p. 136, 17 Ja.). Paul ironically refers to his opponents (or the original apostles; s. s.v. ὑπερλίαν) asοἱ ὑπερλίαν ἀ. the super-apostles 2 Cor 11:5; 12:11. The original apostles he calls οἱ πρὸ ἐμοῦ ἀ. Gal 1:17; ... F.Agnew, On the Origin of the Term Apostolos: CBQ 38, ’76, 49–53 (survey of debate); K.Haacker, NovT 30, ’88, 9–38 (Acts).

Ins evidence (s. eg. SIG index) relating to the verb ἀποστέλλω is almost generally ignored in debate about the meaning of the noun.—DELG s.v. στέλλω A. EDNT. M-M. TW. Spicq.

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Re: In Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon

#43500  Postby RealityRules » Oct 27, 2023 12:22 am

RealityRules wrote:Here's some excerpts from A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (4 ed.), 2021:
ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ ⟦apóstolos⟧ (s. ἀποστέλλω). In older Gk. (Lysias, Demosth.) and later (e.g. Posidon.: 87 Fgm. 53 p. 257, 21 Jac. [Strabo 3, 5, 5]) ὁ ἀ. is a naval expedition, prob. also its commander (Anecd. Gr. 217, 26). τὸ ἀπόστολον with (Plato Ep. 7, 346a) or without (Vi. Hom. 19) πλοῖον means a ship ready for departure. In its single occurrence in Jos. (Ant. 17, 300; it is not found elsewhere in Jewish-Gk. lit.) it prob. means ‘sending out’ ...

I had Plato's Epistle 7 and Josephus Antiquities 17.300/11.1 above
RealityRules wrote:
Plato's Epistle 7.346a
ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις πλοίοις ἐμβὰς διενοούμην πλεῖν, τεθυμωμένος, πάσχειν τε οἰόμενος δεῖν, εἰ διακωλυοίμην, ὁτιοῦν, ἐπειδὴ περιφανῶς ἠδίκουν μὲν οὐδέν
I was in the apostles' boat on the sea, and I was suffering and being seen to suffer, and being mocked because they are proudly not to blame
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0163%3Aletter%3D7%3Apage%3D346

Josephus Antiquities 17.11.1

[300] ἀφίκετο εἰς τὴν Ῥώμην πρεσβεία Ἰουδαίων Οὐάρου, τὸν ἀπόστολον αὐτῶν τῷ ἔθνει ἐπικεχωρηκότος ὑπὲρ αἰτήσεως αὐτονομίας. καὶ ἦσαν οἱ μὲν πρέσβεις οἱ ἀποσταλέντες γνώμῃ τοῦ ἔθνους πεντήκοντα, συνίσταντο δὲ αὐτοῖς τῶν ἐπὶ Ῥώμης Ἰουδαίων ὑπὲρ ὀκτακισχίλιοι.

[300] There arrived in Rome an embassy of the Judeans [through] Varus, the apostle/s from their nation who have come with a request for autonomy. And the embassy who brought the opinion of the nation were fifty, and they were joined by the Roman Judeans of eight thousand.

http://www.biblical.ie/page.php?fl=jose ... ies/AJGk17


    Maybe Plato's reference could or should be "the apostolic boat"

    The "with...or without πλοῖον means ship ready for departure" doesn't seem right because Plato's Epistle 7 346a seems to have them "on the sea" ie. already on their way; ie. post departure.
edit to add: maybe Antiquities 17.300 means
"an embassy of the Judeans sent out from their nation [with Varus' permission] came with a request for autonomy"
(there could be many interpretations of that Greek, but "ἀπόστολον" in "τὸν ἀπόστολον" seems to be a noun)
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