Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42981  Postby Hermit » May 19, 2020 4:29 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote: :lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?

And then there was this office clerk, a cobbler as he likened himself to. Certainly not a scholar. Pffft. His shit can be safely dismissed on account of that.

I am not sure what you're trying to say here. My point isn't that something can be dismissed because it was said by somebody who calls themselves or is called a scholar. My point is that calling someone a scholar as the foundation of an appeal to authority is silly.
If you want to bring someone's opinion/claims up as an authoritative source you should list their expertise and/or actual professional title.

Especially since both on the topic of this thread, as well as discussions about pseudoscience, the label 'scholar' gets thrown around a lot to imply credibility when no actual authority can be demonstrated.

Indeed. The self-described cobbler was Albert Einstein. Stein's allusions to "real scholars" was as ridiculous an appeal to authority as one can make.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42982  Postby RealityRules » May 19, 2020 5:29 am

.
'Christianity': a Response to Roman-Jewish Conflict

by Markus Vinzent

Excerpts -

Marcion's account of a "new Jewish cult, with its many priestly, ascetic, and messianic elements, was conceived as an antithesis to the messianic movement of Bar Kokhba and to Pharisaic Judaism. Marcion draws on both, emphasizing the prophetic teacher and messiah figure Jesus and the radicalised view that only Jesus’ oral tradition would constitute the covenant with God. This God, however, is perceived by Marcion as the antithesis to the God of Israel – the judging, war-mongering creator god of the Torah, the Prophets, and apocalyptic writings like Daniel. In his place, Marcion crowns the God of the new edict of peace and love of enemies, a counter-programme to that of Bar Kokhba."
- - -
" In Marcion’s view, righteousness was no longer confined to one form of faith. It was now revealed to all, to "the Jew" as well as "to the Greek", just as "injustice" is revealed "from heaven" to all as evinced by the "wrath" and "all [the] ungodliness and injustice of people who suppress the truth by their injustice".11 He developed Paul’s idea of Judaism not as a matter of "flesh", but rather a "circumcision of the heart", 'in the spirit, not in the letter'."

    11. Tertullian, Marc. 5.13.2: iram dicit revelari de caelo super impietatem et iniustitiam hominum qui veritatem in iniustitia detineant; compare Rom 1:18.
- - -
"... Marcion’s Messiah was not a political rebel, but a spiritual figure "revealed by a god formerly unknown", who had come "for the salvation of all the nations", including Romans, Jews and others.

"... Marcion portrays Jesus as a symbol of love for one’s enemies, of doing good to one’s oppressors (Mcn. 6.27, 35), of lending money expecting nothing in return (Mcn. 6.35). His Jesus warns people "to guard from all types of greed, because one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions" (Mcn. 12.15)."
- - -
Even Tertullian noted that Marcion, at the beginning of his Gospel, neither cites Jewish witnesses nor frames Jesus’ appearance within the history of Israel.
- - -
" The material Marcion had organized biographically and geographically (as befitted a man engaged in the ship trade), was rapidly picked up by others, copied, altered and presented to the public as the Gospels according to Matthew, John, Mark and Luke (and others). Marcion himself, as Tertullian explains, reacted negatively to the plagiarism of his Gospel, especially as it was circulated under the names of apostles (Matthew, John) and apostolic men (Mark, Luke). In response, Marcion decided to present his collection as an anonymous Gospel, prefaced by his Antitheses, and supplemented by ten Pauline letters which he had gathered, edited, and biographically and geographically arranged. He entitled the entire collection the "New Testament". It was in the preface to this work that he portrayed "Christianity" as the "antithesis" to "Judaism" to which he had once belonged and from which he had suffered during the last anti-Roman revolt.20 "

    20. -> "40: Tertullian, Marc. 4.6.3: Constituit Marcion alium esse Christum qui Tiberianis temporibus a deo quondam ignoto revelatus sit in salutem omnium gentium, alium qui a deo creatore in restitutionem Iudaici status sit destinatus quandoque venturus. Inter hos magnam et omnem differentiam scindit, quantam inter iustum et bonum, quantam inter legem et evangelium, quantam inter Iudaismum et Christianismum."
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42983  Postby Stein » May 19, 2020 9:57 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Stein wrote:
dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:

Some real scholars listed here --

https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2 ... process-c/

Stein


Real scholars, unlike those impostors from the previous post?


Yes.

Stein

:lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?


There are plenty of requirements, just as there are for researchers in any discipline that requires special training. Only Trumpists and other web trolls pretend there are no requirements in order to create know-nothing cults.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42984  Postby proudfootz » May 20, 2020 2:26 am

It's certainly up to the self-appointed gatekeepers of who and who is not a 'scholar' to produce their credentials.

Otherwise they are only putting forward self-refuting claims worthy only of ridicule.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42985  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 20, 2020 6:59 am

Stein wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Stein wrote:
dogsgod wrote:

Real scholars, unlike those impostors from the previous post?


Yes.

Stein

:lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?


There are plenty of requirements,

Nope. No degree, no publications, nothing.

Stein wrote: just as there are for researchers in any discipline that requires special training.

False. Scholar is the equivalent of nutritionist.

Stein wrote: Only Trumpists and other web trolls pretend there are no requirements in order to create know-nothing cults.

Stein

Why do you always resort to this type of personalised and baseless invective when people disagree with you Stein? :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42986  Postby RealityRules » May 20, 2020 10:14 am

Stein wrote: Only Trumpists and other web trolls pretend there are no requirements in order to create know-nothing cults.

Q? QAnon?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42987  Postby Fallible » May 20, 2020 10:39 am

Stein wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Stein wrote:
dogsgod wrote:

Real scholars, unlike those impostors from the previous post?


Yes.

Stein

:lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?


There are plenty of requirements, just as there are for researchers in any discipline that requires special training. Only Trumpists and other web trolls pretend there are no requirements in order to create know-nothing cults.

Stein


Are you aware of the concept of the protected title? Doctor, dentist, pharmacist. These are examples of protected titles. One can only call oneself a doctor if one possesses the requisite qualifications. Scholar, on the other hand, is not a protected title. One does not need to hold certain qualifications in order to be able to call oneself a scholar. This has absolutely nothing to do with ‘Trumpists and other web trolls’.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42988  Postby RealityRules » May 20, 2020 1:35 pm

Stein wrote:There are plenty of requirements, just as there are for researchers in any discipline that requires special training.

Yes, take Markus Vinzent, -
RealityRules wrote:
'Christianity': a Response to Roman-Jewish Conflict

by Markus Vinzent

"The material Marcion had organized biographically and geographically (as befitted a man engaged in the ship trade), was rapidly picked up by others, copied, altered and presented to the public as the Gospels according to Matthew, John, Mark and Luke (and others). Marcion himself, as Tertullian explains, reacted negatively to the plagiarism of his Gospel, especially as it was circulated under the names of apostles (Matthew, John) and apostolic men (Mark, Luke). In response, Marcion decided to present his collection as an anonymous Gospel, prefaced by his Antitheses, and supplemented by ten Pauline letters which he had gathered, edited, and biographically and geographically arranged. He entitled the entire collection the "New Testament". It was in the preface to this work that he portrayed "Christianity" as the "antithesis" to "Judaism" to which he had once belonged and from which he had suffered during the last anti-Roman revolt."

From 1978 to 1983 Vinzent studied philosophy , theology , Jewish studies , antiquity and archeology at the universities of Eichstätt and at the Sorbonne in Paris, which he graduated with a diploma in philosophy and theology.

Vincent was a pastor from 1984 to 1991 [and since the 1990s has been an entrepreneur in serial data technology (IT, Internet, personnel, energy, waste, utilities and infrastructure)].

He also undertook doctorate studies from 1987 to 1991 at the Ludwig Maximilians University in Munich, and subsequent postdoctoral studies  & habilitation from 1991 to '95 at the Ruprecht-Karls University in Heidelberg.

From 1991 to 1993 he worked as a research assistant at King's College in Cambridge, working with Catherine Hezser, Keith Hopkins, Seth Schwartz and Wolfram Kinzig on a project on the origin and development of early Christianity.

From 1993 to 1995 he was a senior research fellow at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of Sciences.

From 1996 to 1997 Vinzent was a C4 professor for the history of theology in the time of the Reformation and Modernity at the University of Mainz.

1997 to 1999, also C4 professor for the history of theology (term of office) at the University of Cologne.

For the decade 1999-2010, he was HG Wood Professor of Theology at the University of Birmingham (Head of Dept, 1999-2001)

Since 2003 he has been one of the directors of the International Conference on Patristic Studies, editor-in-chief of Studia Patristica, the official publication of the conference; and editor of the Eckhart: Texts and Studies series.

Together with others, he initiated and wrote the Birmingham study with guidelines on the “Trialogue of Cultures” in 2003 as the result of an 8-country study funded by the Altana/BMW-Foundation on teaching and learning about Islam, Judaism and Christianity in schools ( BMW Foundation Herbert Quandt) with a large research grant (2000–2002). This resulted in a ten-year foundation initiative, in which around 200 German schools took part in a so-called 'trilogue competition' between 2005 and 2015. The aim was to develop creative projects in schools for a better co-cultural life based on the guidelines. The results resulted in a long list of publications, a course for children's programs by Hessischer Rundfunk and various other media.

From September 2010 he has been a professor in the Faculty of Theology and Religious Studies at King's College in London.

Together with Professor Allen Brent, religious scholar for early Christian history and literature, he led the large-scale research project "Early Christian Iconography and Epigraphy" , a project that was generously funded by the British Academy in the period from 2011 to 2012.

From 2010 to 2015 he was an associate professor at Korea University in Seoul. 

He has been a Fellow of the Max Weber Center for Social and Cultural Studies at the University of Erfurt since 2012.

His academic publications, including several books and book chapters, are numerous.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42989  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 20, 2020 2:06 pm

None of which makes Markus a scholar.
Calling himself or being called a scholar makes him one.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42990  Postby Svartalf » May 20, 2020 2:18 pm

Actually, being called a scholar by others who recognize your learning has some meaning.
Calling oneself a scholar does not. I regard myself as a scholar, I doubt there is anybody here who would take my word and expertise at face value.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42991  Postby proudfootz » May 20, 2020 2:49 pm

If credentialists can't get their fringe and idiosyncratic definition of 'scholar' into dictionaries (arguably the recognized and authoritative arbiters of what the consensus is on what the word denotes) they've got a great deal of work ahead of them before they can compel general assent.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42992  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 20, 2020 3:48 pm

Svartalf wrote:Actually, being called a scholar by others who recognize your learning has some meaning.

Not necessarily, see how often creationist apologists appeal to scholars who have no degree, or if they have one, not in the field relevant to the topic at hand.

Svartalf wrote:
Calling oneself a scholar does not.

Not necessarily, but it can.

Svartalf wrote: I regard myself as a scholar, I doubt there is anybody here who would take my word and expertise at face value.

The point that there is no formal qualification means anyone can call themselves or someone else a scholar.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#42993  Postby proudfootz » May 20, 2020 3:56 pm

Stein wrote:

I wish I could recall who it was on this board (or was it the old Richard Dawkins one?) who pointed out that real scholarship is when the researcher probes the various data on the ground to ascertain the extent to which any consistent historical pattern may emerge, without bringing in any preferred conclusions beforehand, while faux scholarship brings in one preferred conclusion at the outset and then proceeds to marshal whatever data is out there with the express purpose of arguing for the a priori conclusion all along, more like a paid lawyer than a real scholar.

Stein


:coffee:

Nothing about being a tenured lecturer being published in specific journals...

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/christianity/historical-jesus-t219-18740.html#p1086838

Edited to include link to show this has been thoroughly hashed out years ago.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42994  Postby Hermit » May 20, 2020 4:55 pm

Stein wrote:
dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:An interesting documentary, 'Marketing the Messiah', has just been released for paid viewing online.

The following scholars contributed (in order of initial appearance; they all appear repeatedly):

  • Dr Geoffrey Dunn, Honorary Research Associate, Dept of Ancient Languages & Cultures, University of Pretoria; & member, Advisory Board of the Journal of Early Christian Studies
  • Dr Michael Bird, Lecturer in Theology, Ridley College
  • Dr Mark Goodacre, Department of Religious Studies, Duke University
  • Dr Brent Landau, BA, M.Div. Th.D, Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Texas,
  • Dr Chris Forbes, Senior Lecturer, Department of Ancient History, Macquarie University
  • Dr Shushma Malik, Lecturer in Classics, University of Roehampton
  • Dr Amy-Jill Levine, University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies, Vanderbilt
  • Prof David Runia, University of Melbourne and Australian Catholic University
  • Dr Richard Carrier, Author, On The Historicity Of Jesus
  • Dr Robert M Price, Author; Editor, the Journal Of Higher Criticism; Host of The Bible Geek,
  • Dr Raphael Lataster, Lecturer In Religious Studies, University Of Sydney
  • David Fitzgerald, who has a degree in history and was an associate member of a Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion, also appears.

Marketing The Messiah (Official Trailer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79yGILbkadk

Promo 2' https://youtu.be/REFL20Z5dzs

'Promo 3' https://youtu.be/ZdMmPU7H3DE

Mark Goodacre https://youtu.be/-QPNT4w4yCg

Amy Jill-Levine [on the messiah] https://youtu.be/Oz-1uIi7AnA

Robert N Price, about the Johannine texts https://youtu.be/ntGAlqs7TVQ

Richard Carrier on the marketing problem after destruction of the Temple https://youtu.be/KfKW2YBoNAc

https://deepdivedocumentaries.com/watch-marketing-the-messiah-today/


Some real scholars listed here --

https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2 ... process-c/

Stein


Real scholars, unlike those impostors from the previous post?


Yes.

Stein

scholar noun
: a person who believes there is sufficient consilience to conclude that a Jewish preacher, called Yeshua & from Nazareth, preached around Galilee & caused a bit of a fuss before the Romans executed him around 2000 years ago.

impostor noun
: a person who believes there is insufficient consilience to conclude that a Jewish preacher, called Yeshua & from Nazareth, preached around Galilee & caused a bit of a fuss before the Romans executed him around 2000 years ago.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42995  Postby Stein » May 21, 2020 1:08 am

Fallible wrote:
Stein wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Stein wrote:

Yes.

Stein

:lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?


There are plenty of requirements, just as there are for researchers in any discipline that requires special training. Only Trumpists and other web trolls pretend there are no requirements in order to create know-nothing cults.

Stein


Are you aware of the concept of the protected title? Doctor, dentist, pharmacist. These are examples of protected titles. One can only call oneself a doctor if one possesses the requisite qualifications. Scholar, on the other hand, is not a protected title. One does not need to hold certain qualifications in order to be able to call oneself a scholar. This has absolutely nothing to do with ‘Trumpists and other web trolls’.


Excuse me, Ph.D.s are called Doctor. Ph.D.s are earned. You are a professional scholar when you earn such credentials in order to research and teach in an institution of higher learning. To conceive of a scholar in any other way is to wallow in an alternative-facts universe. Who does that remind you of?

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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#42996  Postby Stein » May 21, 2020 1:10 am

proudfootz wrote:
Stein wrote:

I wish I could recall who it was on this board (or was it the old Richard Dawkins one?) who pointed out that real scholarship is when the researcher probes the various data on the ground to ascertain the extent to which any consistent historical pattern may emerge, without bringing in any preferred conclusions beforehand, while faux scholarship brings in one preferred conclusion at the outset and then proceeds to marshal whatever data is out there with the express purpose of arguing for the a priori conclusion all along, more like a paid lawyer than a real scholar.

Stein


:coffee:

Nothing about being a tenured lecturer being published in specific journals...

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/christianity/historical-jesus-t219-18740.html#p1086838

Edited to include link to show this has been thoroughly hashed out years ago.


LOLOLOLOL!!!! That addresses what the scholar does; not who the scholar is -- DUH.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42997  Postby RealityRules » May 21, 2020 1:31 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:None of which makes Markus a scholar.
Calling himself or being called a scholar makes him one.

re your 2nd sentence: I'm not aware Markus Vinzent calls himself a scholar.

But, re your 1st sentence: all those things, along with his many publications, do make him a scholar
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42998  Postby RealityRules » May 21, 2020 1:33 am

Stein wrote: ... PhDs are earned. You are a professional scholar when you earn such credentials in order to research and teach in an institution of higher learning. To conceive of a scholar in any other way is to wallow in an alternative-facts universe ...

I fully agree.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#42999  Postby proudfootz » May 21, 2020 1:35 am

Stein wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Stein wrote:

I wish I could recall who it was on this board (or was it the old Richard Dawkins one?) who pointed out that real scholarship is when the researcher probes the various data on the ground to ascertain the extent to which any consistent historical pattern may emerge, without bringing in any preferred conclusions beforehand, while faux scholarship brings in one preferred conclusion at the outset and then proceeds to marshal whatever data is out there with the express purpose of arguing for the a priori conclusion all along, more like a paid lawyer than a real scholar.

Stein


:coffee:

Nothing about being a tenured lecturer being published in specific journals...

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/christianity/historical-jesus-t219-18740.html#p1086838

Edited to include link to show this has been thoroughly hashed out years ago.


LOLOLOLOL!!!! That addresses what the scholar does; not who the scholar is -- DUH.

Stein


A scholar would be the person who does what scholars do.

It doesn't matter if they're on the payroll of some university. The work stands on its own.

Unless you're willing to throw people like Darwin and Einstein under the bus 'cause they weren't tenured professors. :roll:
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43000  Postby Svartalf » May 21, 2020 2:24 am

Stein wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Stein wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
:lol: You do realise that anyone can call themselves a scholar? That unlike historian, dietician etc. there are no requirements whatsoever?


There are plenty of requirements, just as there are for researchers in any discipline that requires special training. Only Trumpists and other web trolls pretend there are no requirements in order to create know-nothing cults.

Stein


Are you aware of the concept of the protected title? Doctor, dentist, pharmacist. These are examples of protected titles. One can only call oneself a doctor if one possesses the requisite qualifications. Scholar, on the other hand, is not a protected title. One does not need to hold certain qualifications in order to be able to call oneself a scholar. This has absolutely nothing to do with ‘Trumpists and other web trolls’.


Excuse me, Ph.D.s are called Doctor. Ph.D.s are earned. You are a professional scholar when you earn such credentials in order to research and teach in an institution of higher learning. To conceive of a scholar in any other way is to wallow in an alternative-facts universe. Who does that remind you of?

Stein

Except of course that not all Ph Ds are delivered equal, I've seen my lot of folk with "degrees" from diploma mills that are not worth the toilet paper they are printed on, including among my own family and close friends.
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