Made of Stars wrote:Try branching out a little E5. There's a little more to this thread than your problem with Pappa/Rationalia.

I think it's more of a problem that E5's attempts at irony are so unfunny.

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Imagination Theory wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Onyx8 wrote:I really needed to comment on the 'dichotomy' of his side and the other side. He really needs to get out more if he thinks there are only two kinds of atheists.

Too right. That reminds me of people who claim Pappa was either right and wrong. Is there no room for nuance in the atheist community today?

Yes, I think his joke could be seen as a threat and it wasn't even funny and it did hurt people. I think someone said they got suicidal about it. But then again, it was on his site and it wasn't meant to be seen by them and he can do whatever the fuck he wants (inside of the law), and someone being offended, well, so what?

Yeah, who cares?

I mean, who cares if someone is offended? Should we go by the numbers? Most people don't approve of rape jokes or gay marriage, so we shouldn't tell them or have equality? Should every time we say something we do a poll first so as not to offend most people or 1/3 of them? I don't think being offended should play into it, is my point. Which I think was Pappa's point and I think he is right and it was on his on thread on his own site. I'm also saying everyone who was hurt by this is right too and it was a dick move and it is more of a threat (I don't think Pappa intended it that way, but it is) than a joke. Rape jokes don't just offended some people, they hurt some people. Like you said, there isn't a "you are either right or wrong", Pappa had the right to say what he did and everyone who was hurt by it has the right to that pain.

Godless Infidel wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:Oh noes! The "T" word! This keeps happening to me! Why?

It must be an internet wide conspiracy. On how many sites does that happen to you?

But don't you believe in free speech, just like Pappa? He said he did only this week. And who are you to dissent from his vision of absolute freedom to post? You're not on PZ's side, are you?

Regina wrote:

Made of Stars wrote:Try branching out a little E5. There's a little more to this thread than your problem with Pappa/Rationalia.

I think it's more of a problem that E5's attempts at irony are so unfunny.

I'm sorry. I am trying to be more like Pappa - there's a man who knows how to make a joke! If I could only acquire his grasp of irony I would die a happy man.

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Godless Infidel wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:Oh noes! The "T" word! This keeps happening to me! Why?

It must be an internet wide conspiracy. On how many sites does that happen to you?

But don't you believe in free speech, just like Pappa? He said he did only this week. And who are you to dissent from his vision of absolute freedom to post? You're not on PZ's side, are you?

And what do you think of rape jokes and freedom of speech? Would you like to share your thoughts on them?

Imagination Theory wrote:And what do you think of rape jokes and freedom of speech? Would you like to share your thoughts on them?

I am for freedom of speech. And when somebody makes such a 'joke', every single person who wants to comment on it can, as much as they want to, and however they want to.

But we are getting off the subject here - the point is, Pappa apologised. And apologising wipes the slate clean and makes everything all right. At least, that's what I learned in my infants school. Then the person who apologised can start all over again. It's really simple. I don't know why people don't get it.

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Imagination Theory wrote:And what do you think of rape jokes and freedom of speech? Would you like to share your thoughts on them?

I am for freedom of speech. And when somebody makes such a 'joke', every single person who wants to comment on it can, as much as they want to, and however they want to.

I think so too (as long as it is within the law).

Exi5tentialist wrote:
But we are getting off the subject here - the point is, Pappa apologised. And apologising wipes the slate clean and makes everything all right. At least, that's what I learned in my infants school. Then the person who apologised can start all over again. It's really simple. I don't know why people don't get it.

I don't think it wipes the slate clean, but telling a few rape jokes shouldn't tarnish you forever either. We should take into account more than just the joke or the apology.

Double post, I think that is the first time that happened. Sorry.

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Godless Infidel wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:Oh noes! The "T" word! This keeps happening to me! Why?

It must be an internet wide conspiracy. On how many sites does that happen to you?

But don't you believe in free speech, just like Pappa? He said he did only this week. And who are you to dissent from his vision of absolute freedom to post? You're not on PZ's side, are you?

I'm on nobody's side. I take sides on issues. Freedom of speech does not not apply on individual sites. Each has their own set rules.

You are free to make your own inane parody site. Go for it. Maybe others will visit. You can take turns putting words and opinions in each others mouths then see who can be the most absurd.

Imagination Theory wrote:Pappa had the right to say what he did and everyone who was hurt by it has the right to that pain.

It's this kind of generosity of spirit that makes Pappa and his supporters so attractive. It is reassuring to know that people who are hurt are given a right to their pain. I can't imagine just how awful it would be if people who were about to be hurt were anaesthetised first. Or worse, imagine them not being hurt in the first place! I suppose that might require the exercise of personal responsibility on the part of the pain-giver, but responsibility isn't in play here - it's far too complicated for minds that are grappling the concept of freedom to start dealing with issues of responsibility simultaneously. That's multi-tasking. No chance.

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Imagination Theory wrote:Pappa had the right to say what he did and everyone who was hurt by it has the right to that pain.

It's this kind of generosity of spirit that makes Pappa and his supporters so attractive. It is reassuring to know that people who are hurt are given a right to their pain. I can't imagine just how awful it would be if people who were about to be hurt were anaesthetised first. Or worse, imagine them not being hurt in the first place! I suppose that might require the exercise of personal responsibility on the part of the pain-giver, but responsibility isn't in play here - it's far too complicated for minds that are grappling the concept of freedom to start dealing with issues of responsibility simultaneously. That's multi-tasking. No chance.

Sarcasm, this?

Imagination Theory wrote:but telling a few rape jokes shouldn't tarnish you forever

'A few' rape jokes!?!?!?!? How many more rape jokes are left in Pappa's allowance?

I mean, can he do it one more time, or twice? Pappa needs guidelines. I'd be mortified if he got the calculation one out.

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Imagination Theory wrote:Pappa had the right to say what he did and everyone who was hurt by it has the right to that pain.

It's this kind of generosity of spirit that makes Pappa and his supporters so attractive. It is reassuring to know that people who are hurt are given a right to their pain. I can't imagine just how awful it would be if people who were about to be hurt were anaesthetised first. Or worse, imagine them not being hurt in the first place! I suppose that might require the exercise of personal responsibility on the part of the pain-giver, but responsibility isn't in play here - it's far too complicated for minds that are grappling the concept of freedom to start dealing with issues of responsibility simultaneously. That's multi-tasking. No chance.

Ah, sorry I'm not clear. They are right to be hurt and to call Pappa on it.

Personal responsibility? Like telling the joke on his thread on his site and then apologizing? Isn't that being responsible? Or do you mean he never should have said it?

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Imagination Theory wrote:but telling a few rape jokes shouldn't tarnish you forever

'A few' rape jokes!?!?!?!? How many more rape jokes are left in Pappa's allowance?

I mean, can he do it one more time, or twice? Pappa needs guidelines. I'd be mortified if he got the calculation one out.

Allowance? Well, with you I think it was always zero and with me it depends on other things as well as the jokes. So, it depends.

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Godless Infidel wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:
Yeah, who cares?

Apparently you do. Do you have anything to add to this topic or are your posts just trolling to provoke a desired reaction?

Oh noes! The "T" word! This keeps happening to me! Why?

Pappa would never allow the debate to sink this low I'm sure! He is a stalwart defender of free speech, as are we all!

I am having doubts regarding your sincerity.
Perhaps I am grossly in error doing that?

Imagination Theory wrote:Ah, sorry I'm not clear. They are right to be hurt and to call Pappa on it.

You mean - you'd actually let them talk about being hurt as well as feeling it? I don't know if I can cope with much more of this, it's just too radical.

Imagination Theory wrote:Personal responsibility? Like telling the joke on his thread on his site and then apologizing? Isn't that being responsible? Or do you mean he never should have said it?

Hmm... now let me see. Let's imagine the word "rape" enters a responsible person's consciousness. Do they think, "Hang on a sec..., I'd better exercise a bit of caution here" or do they just splurge it out on a public internet page in the form of the worst joke ever?

I don't know - what to do. I'm torn. Pappa is my role model. What would he do?

devogue wrote:

byofrcs wrote:

devogue wrote:I think I'll go piss in some holy water.

Not only will it be extremely provocative and upsetting to religious cunts, but I'll also be showing my love and support for the communion wafer destroyer PZ.

I love progressive atheism.

But that is antitheism or antireligion and not atheism and actually pissing in holy water, whilst it would be adding sterile pee to un-sterile water, would be kind of dickish.

Atheism is simply not a belief.

Indeed, but desecration of religious paraphernalia is something PZ would endorse.

I want to make sure I am with PZ on the side of righteousness in atheism and not a smug anti-progressive, so I reckon pissing in Holy Water will prove my credentials, separate me from the wishy washy losers and elevate me to the right hand of our Lord PZ Myers as we march towards a glorious godless future.

Yes and whilst I support the right for people to desecrate religious paraphernalia one does not start a spitball fight on the territory of an enemy that wants to utterly wipe you out.

If a secular society, e.g. an art gallery, had a work of art that you disagreed with then whilst you can robustly call it for what it is, you cannot physically damage it as that is vandalism and simply attracts sympathetic attention to the art.

Now perhaps PZM tactics are to help create an antithesis in young people towards Catholicism and so in time stop American Catholics from donating money to the Vatican (the US being an important 1/3rd contributor to Peter's Pence) but whilst the Nail-a-host was in 2008 after the Peter's Pence collection and in the same year of the Pope visit to the US but in 2009 the donations rose overall by 7 million dollars (in 2010 it dropped).

What I want to see is PZM make a prediction, do the experiment and then see the results. This is science. The 2008 host desecration is to me a failure.

I have mixed feelings on the wafer issue.


By the way, does anyone know if this thread http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... &start=900
at rationalia is really closed? I've heard I lot of people say it was/is, but I can still see it and I'm not signed in.

Gallstones wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Godless Infidel wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:
Yeah, who cares?

Apparently you do. Do you have anything to add to this topic or are your posts just trolling to provoke a desired reaction?

Oh noes! The "T" word! This keeps happening to me! Why?

Pappa would never allow the debate to sink this low I'm sure! He is a stalwart defender of free speech, as are we all!

I am having doubts regarding your sincerity.

Perhaps I am grossly in error doing that?

Oh my goodness - you doubt my sincerity?! Say it isn't so! Well you can say what you like about me, but Pappa's sincerity is beyond question. Pappa says that he absolutely supports freedom of speech. There can be no doubting his sincerity on that now, can there?

Imagination Theory wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:

Imagination Theory wrote:

Exi5tentialist wrote:
Too right. That reminds me of people who claim Pappa was either right and wrong. Is there no room for nuance in the atheist community today?

Yes, I think his joke could be seen as a threat and it wasn't even funny and it did hurt people. I think someone said they got suicidal about it. But then again, it was on his site and it wasn't meant to be seen by them and he can do whatever the fuck he wants (inside of the law), and someone being offended, well, so what?

Yeah, who cares?

I mean, who cares if someone is offended? Should we go by the numbers? Most people don't approve of rape jokes or gay marriage, so we shouldn't tell them or have equality? Should every time we say something we do a poll first so as not to offend most people or 1/3 of them? I don't think being offended should play into it, is my point. Which I think was Pappa's point and I think he is right and it was on his on thread on his own site. I'm also saying everyone who was hurt by this is right too and it was a dick move and it is more of a threat (I don't think Pappa intended it that way, but it is) than a joke. Rape jokes don't just offended some people, they hurt some people. Like you said, there isn't a "you are either right or wrong", Pappa had the right to say what he did and everyone who was hurt by it has the right to that pain.

That joke may not have been Pappa's best idea ever, but Myers had the opportunity to confront him about it on Rationalia - Myers was a member there also. Instead he decided to blog about it and send the Squid Squad over to castigate Pappa and the forum as a whole. That alone is enough to make me lose all respect for Myers.