Russian and US ambitions and motivations

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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#241  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 28, 2019 2:45 pm

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/ ... g-news.pdf
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/ ... ising-news

Media outlets RT and Sputnik perform a "damage control" function for the Russian state during incidents such as the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal and deploy a range of tactics to project Russian strength and construct news agendas.

This is the first comprehensive study of how RT and Sputnik sow confusion and division in the UK and beyond. It is based on an analysis of nearly 12,000 articles published in English by the two outlets and over 150,000 online articles by UK news outlets. The articles were collected between May and June 2017, and in March 2018, in the immediate aftermath of the Skripal poisoning.
The Skripal poisoning

RT and Sputnik published 138 separate and contradictory narratives about the Skripal poisoning across 735 articles in the four weeks following the incident, incorporating the views of a "parallel commentariat" and amplifying Russian government sources.


European and North American democracies

RT and Sputnik coverage of European and North American democracies – including the UK, US, France, Germany, Sweden, Italy and Ukraine – was overwhelmingly focused on issues of social and political dysfunction, including coverage of the negative effects of immigration...



The most frequently repeated narratives supporting the Russian position asserted that Russia’s willingness to cooperate was being rejected by the West, that there was no evidence to prove Russian guilt, and that the Western response was driven by ‘Russophobia’ and hysteria.



Coverage of NATO by RT and Sputnik was both prominent and overwhelmingly negative. 617 articles mentioning NATO were published over the eight weeks sampled in 2017 and 2018, approximately 5% of total output by the Russian sites; of these, 80% contained criticism of the alliance.• NATO was characterised as both aggressive and threatening, and simultaneously weak and incapable: 280 articles criticised NATO as expansionist and aggressive, as illegal or illegitimate, as being untrustworthy or duplicitous to its own members and to opponents, or outlined instances of failures, mistakes or incompetence by NATO personnel. 181 articles focused on disharmony and conflict within NATO, and international friction between member states. 80 articles contained the assertion or implication that NATO membership had a detrimental effect on (particularly new or smaller) members, and 168 articles justified Russian military build-up or offensive policies as a valid and necessary response to NATO.


If you go through the list identified by The King's College London report, you'll find that we've pretty much hit Bingo several times over already in this thread regurgitated uncritically by Mike taking his talking points directly from Russian propaganda.

It is exactly like having a discussion with a Creationist about science and they keep appealing to Answers in Genesis whenever a point is to be discussed. The fact that AiG is a source of disinformation and they're unironically citing it is where the primary problem lies; you can't lead them via evidence or reason towards a clearer understanding of the topic because they're hoving to a source which is fundamentally hostile to evidence and reason, and if they were open to evidence and reason then they'd not be citing AiG in the first place. You can't break the circle for them, but you sure can demolish the splatterings they regurgitate out uncritically.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#242  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2019 2:59 pm

Coverage of NATO by RT and Sputnik was both prominent and overwhelmingly negative.


Just that one sentence reveals the absurdity of the whole thesis.
NATO is Russia's enemy, and conducts war games to make that point. So of course Russian reporting on NATO is going to be "both prominent and overwhelmingly negative."
The Sputnik and RT depictions are entirely reasonable, but are presented as evidence of unhinged Russian propaganda. Just more typically facile Russia-bashing.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#243  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 28, 2019 3:06 pm

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... on_Warfare

RT (formerly Russia Today) and Sputnik are usually the first to be named in discussions of Russian information campaigns via the mass media. But they are only the most visible elements in a very wide range of different outlets, both those which are avowed and those which conceal their elements, tailoring their output to the expectations of their intended readers and viewers. The media effort is thus able to adopt a different approach for different forums, ranging from simple fabrication, through confusion with half-truths, to sophisticated argument. Even those parts of Russian information campaigns that are visible to audiences in any one language are only part of a broad multilingual front, including not only state-backed media and trolling, but also fake media – sock puppet websites set up to resemble genuine news outlets, but seeding their news feeds with false or contentious reporting that ties in with Russian narratives.112 The nature of the internet means that the effective placing of disinformation in reputable news outlets is vastly cheaper, simpler, and more permanent than in previous decades when the primary medium was newspapers.
Last edited by Spearthrower on Jul 28, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#244  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 28, 2019 3:18 pm

Mike_L wrote:
The Sputnik and RT depictions are entirely reasonable, but are presented as evidence of unhinged Russian propaganda. Just more typically facile Russia-bashing.


https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/ ... g-news.pdf

In particular, the consistent portrayal of Western governments as untrustworthy partners (in contrast with ‘honest, reasonable’ Russia – as the most frequently recorded narrative in this study attests), driven by dishonest or hypocritical goals and both dangerously aggressive and simultaneously weak and unstable...


The most frequently repeated narratives supporting the Russian position asserted that Russia’s willingness to cooperate was being rejected by the West, that there was no evidence to prove Russian guilt, and that the Western response was driven by ‘Russophobia’ and hysteria.


A series of 11 narratives denoted justifications or explanations of the Russian government’s response. This included by far the most common narrative included in the sample: that Russia is being reasonable and offering to cooperate, while Western governments are refusing to do so. In total, this narrative featured in 248 articles, over one-third of all Skripal articles on RT and Sputnik. The very high frequency of this narrative is partly driven by the fact that it was frequently made by senior figures such as Dmitry Peskov, Sergey Lavrov and – in one rare intervention by the President – Vladimir Putin, but mostly through frequent repetitions in the editorial text of Sputnik articles.


NATO was characterised both as aggressive and threatening, and simultaneously weak and incapable: 280 articles criticised NATO as expansionist and aggressive, as illegal or illegitimate, as being untrustworthy or duplicitous to its own members and to opponents


The Finnish Institute of International Affairs (2016) identified information warfare strategies in how Russia projected narratives at European media...

One common target of such narratives is NATO, the defensive alliance of European and North American states viewed by Russia as a proxy for American interests and a threat to Russia’s security and strategic interests. Fear of NATO enlargement is a key driver of Russia’s international policy, as is distrust of the motivations of members of the alliance following its expansion into what Russia perceives as its own sphere of influence following the collapse of the Soviet Union.


This section analyses how RT and Sputnik portray Russia’s international opponents to English-speaking audiences, how they project Russian military strength, and the extent to which media in the UK pick up and replicate Russian propaganda on its military technology and capability. A content analysis of RT and Sputnik coverage of NATO shows the key frames in how Russian media present the alliance on issues of legitimacy, aggression, trustworthiness, and the legitimacy of Russian actions in relation to NATO.


Representing the enemy: RT and Sputnik coverage of NATO
This analysis is based on eight weeks of RT and Sputnik coverage, spread over two four-week samples: 11th May – 7th June 2017 and 4th – 31st March 2018. Each sample immediately followed or spanned events that pushed the Russian military and NATO to the top of the agenda on RT and Sputnik.114 On 9th May 2017, Russia held its Victory Day celebrations, culminating in the annual Red Square military parade. On 17th May, President Putin announced the drafting of a new framework document for defence budgeting, procurement and development,115while on 24th May Minister of Defence Sergey Shoygu outlined plans for the acquisition of aircraft, air defence systems and submarines.116 The NATO Brussels summit took place on 27th May, during the third week of the 2017 sample.In 2018, the sample began three days after Vladimir Putin’s speech to the Federal Assembly on 1st March, where the Russian President cited NATO’s eastward expansion and missile defence systems as the motivation for his presentation of a range of new Russian weapons.117March 2018 also saw NATO training exercises in Estonia and the signing of an agreement by Poland to purchase the Patriot missile defence system from the US.1


Pelageya wanna cracker?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#245  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 28, 2019 3:25 pm

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/ ... g-news.pdf

Conclusions
The coverage of NATO observed on RT and Sputnik is not surprising – it is hardly groundbreaking that Russia does not like NATO and its government-owned news outlets do not present it in a positive light. It does, however, invite more analysis of what English-language output on RT and Sputnik is for – a disinformation campaign to harm the public image of NATO in the West, or a news aggregator for domestic Russian audiences about the aggression and incompetence of a key enemy? It is certainly possible to have it both ways, and the coverage does follow closely traditional Russian state narratives about the aggression, expansion and illegitimacy of NATO and the justification for Russian military spending and offensive foreign policy in Europe. This is exemplified in the consistent paradox that NATO is dangerous enough to warrant Russian military posturing and spending, and that it is simultaneously weak and incompetent and therefore no match for Russia’s supremacy in military hardware. Another key theme – that NATO is riven by internal disagreements and that smaller members are bullied by larger ones, particularly the United States – indicates that Russian media consistently portray disfunction, distrust and malaise within the alliance. This prefigures the analysis in the following section, which shows that systemic dysfunction is the main lens through which most, if not all, coverage of the West by RT and Sputnik is portrayed.


It's like a synopsis of Mike's posting history on the subject. It's almost as if he's uncritically swallowed Russian propaganda en masse from RT, then simply regurgitated it here. Presumably, this is how it spreads, how it is intended to spread. Luckily, this site has a fair number of white cells amassed ready to give disinformation a damn good kicking.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#246  Postby Animavore » Jul 28, 2019 3:37 pm

Mike. Remember when we were in South Africa and what you said to me?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#247  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2019 4:36 pm

Animavore wrote:Mike. Remember when we were in South Africa and what you said to me?

Yep, you're right.
I have been playing provocateur in this thread (and the 'Trump Watch' one). Borderline trolling... maybe full-on trolling. My apologies. I'll rein it in. :thumbup:
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#248  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2019 5:09 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
The Sputnik and RT depictions are entirely reasonable, but are presented as evidence of unhinged Russian propaganda. Just more typically facile Russia-bashing.


https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/ ... g-news.pdf

In particular, the consistent portrayal of Western governments as untrustworthy partners (in contrast with ‘honest, reasonable’ Russia – as the most frequently recorded narrative in this study attests), driven by dishonest or hypocritical goals and both dangerously aggressive and simultaneously weak and unstable...


The most frequently repeated narratives supporting the Russian position asserted that Russia’s willingness to cooperate was being rejected by the West, that there was no evidence to prove Russian guilt, and that the Western response was driven by ‘Russophobia’ and hysteria.


A series of 11 narratives denoted justifications or explanations of the Russian government’s response. This included by far the most common narrative included in the sample: that Russia is being reasonable and offering to cooperate, while Western governments are refusing to do so. In total, this narrative featured in 248 articles, over one-third of all Skripal articles on RT and Sputnik. The very high frequency of this narrative is partly driven by the fact that it was frequently made by senior figures such as Dmitry Peskov, Sergey Lavrov and – in one rare intervention by the President – Vladimir Putin, but mostly through frequent repetitions in the editorial text of Sputnik articles.


NATO was characterised both as aggressive and threatening, and simultaneously weak and incapable: 280 articles criticised NATO as expansionist and aggressive, as illegal or illegitimate, as being untrustworthy or duplicitous to its own members and to opponents


The Finnish Institute of International Affairs (2016) identified information warfare strategies in how Russia projected narratives at European media...

One common target of such narratives is NATO, the defensive alliance of European and North American states viewed by Russia as a proxy for American interests and a threat to Russia’s security and strategic interests. Fear of NATO enlargement is a key driver of Russia’s international policy, as is distrust of the motivations of members of the alliance following its expansion into what Russia perceives as its own sphere of influence following the collapse of the Soviet Union.


This section analyses how RT and Sputnik portray Russia’s international opponents to English-speaking audiences, how they project Russian military strength, and the extent to which media in the UK pick up and replicate Russian propaganda on its military technology and capability. A content analysis of RT and Sputnik coverage of NATO shows the key frames in how Russian media present the alliance on issues of legitimacy, aggression, trustworthiness, and the legitimacy of Russian actions in relation to NATO.


Representing the enemy: RT and Sputnik coverage of NATO
This analysis is based on eight weeks of RT and Sputnik coverage, spread over two four-week samples: 11th May – 7th June 2017 and 4th – 31st March 2018. Each sample immediately followed or spanned events that pushed the Russian military and NATO to the top of the agenda on RT and Sputnik.114 On 9th May 2017, Russia held its Victory Day celebrations, culminating in the annual Red Square military parade. On 17th May, President Putin announced the drafting of a new framework document for defence budgeting, procurement and development,115while on 24th May Minister of Defence Sergey Shoygu outlined plans for the acquisition of aircraft, air defence systems and submarines.116 The NATO Brussels summit took place on 27th May, during the third week of the 2017 sample.In 2018, the sample began three days after Vladimir Putin’s speech to the Federal Assembly on 1st March, where the Russian President cited NATO’s eastward expansion and missile defence systems as the motivation for his presentation of a range of new Russian weapons.117March 2018 also saw NATO training exercises in Estonia and the signing of an agreement by Poland to purchase the Patriot missile defence system from the US.1


Pelageya wanna cracker?

So you separate one of my sentences from the explanatory ones that preceded it, and use it as basis for an insult.
That kind of trash-posting makes my own trash-posting look sophisticated by comparison.
Neither of us is going to concede to the other. We're both wasting our time.
:nono:
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#249  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 28, 2019 5:40 pm

Mike_L wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pelageya wanna cracker?

So you separate one of my sentences from the explanatory ones that preceded it, and use it as basis for an insult.
That kind of trash-posting makes my own trash-posting look sophisticated by comparison.
Neither of us is going to concede to the other. We're both wasting our time.


Of course Russia depicts NATO as an enemy. How did you show that was unreasonable? Because NATO is hostile to Russia? How did you show NATO's hostility to Russia was unreasonable? You fucking didn't, and so you should fuck right off with that kind of shit, Mike. This isn't about how anyone should make concessions to you. You're fucking trolling is what you are.

The situation is that NATO and Russia do not have a cordial relationship. And you want to show that's NATO's problem. Fuck off, with that. You're trying to defend Russia, so you should stick to pointing out all the great stuff that Russia does in the world, but that's not working out for you, is it? If you can't persuade someone that Russia is a force for honor and goodness, don't just blame it on someone's failure to concede some point you haven't made.

If there's an adversarial relationship that's unjustified. you ought to be explaining how it's unjustified, instead of implying that arguments like this are a waste of your time. You think Russia's terrific, but you won't say why. You just vilify anyone who doesn't love Russia. Why? You don't fucking know. All you know is that NATO and the US need a counterbalance. You can't explain why, except that you and somebody you root for can't seem to take advantage of the present situation. Who is that?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#250  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2019 6:58 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pelageya wanna cracker?

So you separate one of my sentences from the explanatory ones that preceded it, and use it as basis for an insult.
That kind of trash-posting makes my own trash-posting look sophisticated by comparison.
Neither of us is going to concede to the other. We're both wasting our time.


Of course Russia depicts NATO as an enemy. How did you show that was unreasonable?

I didn't show it was unreasonable. I didn't try to.
Mike_L wrote:NATO is Russia's enemy, and conducts war games to make that point. So of course Russian reporting on NATO is going to be "both prominent and overwhelmingly negative."
The Sputnik and RT depictions are entirely reasonable, but are presented as evidence of unhinged Russian propaganda. Just more typically facile Russia-bashing.


Cito di Pense wrote:How did you show NATO's hostility to Russia was unreasonable?

I didn't try to do that either.

The situation is that NATO and Russia do not have a cordial relationship.

Yes.

And you want to show that's NATO's problem. Fuck off, with that. You're trying to defend Russia, so you should stick to pointing out all the great stuff that Russia does in the world...

I think I maybe did that once -- when I alluded to infrastructure development in Crimea, post reunification with Russia.

...but that's not working out for you, is it?

I wouldn't really know -- because it hasn't been the mainstay of my posts.

If there's an adversarial relationship that's unjustified. you ought to be explaining how it's unjustified, instead of implying that arguments like this are a waste of your time.

Trying to show that an adversarial relationship is unjustified (or justified) would indeed be a waste of my time, and everyone else's.

You think Russia's terrific, but you won't say why.

I have said why in other threads, the Syria one specifically. Russia halted the USA's regime-change endeavor in that country. That is terrific. Really.

All you know is that NATO and the US need a counterbalance. You can't explain why...

I have explained why. Every allusion I've made to Iraq, Libya and Syria is an explanation why.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#251  Postby tuco » Jul 28, 2019 7:35 pm

Just a side note, the mere existence of military alliance such as NATO poses a threat to all non-allied military forces in the world. I mean, if I buy a gun for protection I consider everyone else a potential threat and who has a bigger gun than I is a bigger threat then someone without a gun. This is pragmatism. Politics or ethics, who the bad guys are and what the good guys gonna do about them is a different matter.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#252  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 28, 2019 9:30 pm

Mike_L wrote:
So you separate one of my sentences from the explanatory ones that preceded it, and use it as basis for an insult.
That kind of trash-posting makes my own trash-posting look sophisticated by comparison.
Neither of us is going to concede to the other. We're both wasting our time.
:nono:



Rather, I showed examples of how you're repeatedly emulating the exact methodology of propaganda dissemination employed by RT.

I don't care whether you concede or not, I don't care if you pretend it's an insult so you can avoid the substance, I don't care if you label it 'trash-posting' or any other name: the vapid bullshit you're bringing here will be contested.

If people want to slurp on the RT Kool Aid they can go and fucking read their website or watch their channel; they don't need you acting as a RT proxy regurgitating uncritically swallowed bullshit and championing it here.

I tried reasoning with you on the basis that I think you're a decent chap, and frankly I think you're heading down a path that is unhealthy and absurd, but I was clearly getting nowhere doing that. You toss out distraction whenever you're pinned on a point; you repeatedly engage in tu quoque even though the problem with that has already been explained to you; you keep using the same methodology employed by these bullshit artists, and just because you're a decent chap, you don't get a free pass to disseminate nonsense on this forum. You even got upset by assumed criticism of Catherine the fucking Great - a woman dead over 200 years, for Christ's sakes - that's how far down the rabbit hole you've fallen.

I told you I am going to stop bothering with you, the person, and just focus on the screed you're promulgating, and you responded in the affirmative acknowledging it; fairly warned, and this is what it entails. Sorry if it pisses you off, but perhaps you should consider whether it's justified or not given the nature of this webforum and the standards of skepticism applied in other areas.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#253  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 28, 2019 9:59 pm

Mike_L wrote:
I have explained why. Every allusion I've made to Iraq, Libya and Syria is an explanation why.


It would be richly rewarding to read an honest attempt by you at explaining anything. By all means, do not restrict yourself to explaining international politics, where you have established no credibility as an authority on any international situation. What you've mainly done is announce yourself as an uncritical consumer of propaganda.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#254  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2019 11:54 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
So you separate one of my sentences from the explanatory ones that preceded it, and use it as basis for an insult.
That kind of trash-posting makes my own trash-posting look sophisticated by comparison.
Neither of us is going to concede to the other. We're both wasting our time.
:nono:



Rather, I showed examples of how you're repeatedly emulating the exact methodology of propaganda dissemination employed by RT.

You found some matching words and highlighted them in red. :clap:

I don't care whether you concede or not, I don't care if you pretend it's an insult so you can avoid the substance, I don't care if you label it 'trash-posting' or any other name: the vapid bullshit you're bringing here will be contested.

If it's just "vapid bullshit", then why do you feel the need to contest it so vigorously... often with multiple posts in response to just one of mine?

If people want to slurp on the RT Kool Aid they can go and fucking read their website or watch their channel; they don't need you acting as a RT proxy regurgitating uncritically swallowed bullshit and championing it here.

Who is "they"? On whose behalf are you speaking? Can't these others decide for themselves which forum posts they do or don't want to read? What is it that they want? Have you asked them? Do they perhaps want an echo chamber...?

"Putin is bad."
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"Absolutely evil."
"I gave your Putin-hating post a thumbs-up."
"Thanks. I returned the favor. I'd give it, like, a dozen thumbs up if I could."
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I tried reasoning with you on the basis that I think you're a decent chap, and frankly I think you're heading down a path that is unhealthy and absurd, but I was clearly getting nowhere doing that. You toss out distraction whenever you're pinned on a point; you repeatedly engage in tu quoque even though the problem with that has already been explained to you; you keep using the same methodology employed by these bullshit artists, and just because you're a decent chap, you don't get a free pass to disseminate nonsense on this forum. You even got upset by assumed criticism of Catherine the fucking Great - a woman dead over 200 years, for Christ's sakes - that's how far down the rabbit hole you've fallen.

That's Empress Catherine the Great, if you don't mind!

I told you I am going to stop bothering with you, the person, and just focus on the screed you're promulgating, and you responded in the affirmative acknowledging it; fairly warned, and this is what it entails. Sorry if it pisses you off, but perhaps you should consider whether it's justified or not given the nature of this webforum and the standards of skepticism applied in other areas.

Like the standards on display in the 'Trump Watch' thread maybe? The thread where debate is near-absent, and each poster simply tries to outdo the other in inventing new Trump nicknames? Do you want a 'Putin Watch' thread where all those who loathe the guy assemble for two (or more) minutes hate before shuffling together for a virtual group hug?
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#255  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jul 29, 2019 1:53 am

Saw on Twitter that Alexei Navalny, who's been sentenced to 30 days in prison for his role in those protests, had developed a "severe allergic reaction".
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#256  Postby Alan C » Jul 29, 2019 2:04 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:Saw on Twitter that Alexei Navalny, who's been sentenced to 30 days in prison for his role in those protests, had developed a "severe allergic reaction".


I read that as well and I immediately considered the various reasons there could like be for this "severe allergic reaction" that likely had nothing to do food or any other cause one could possibly encounter. It's because of several recent instances of poisonings inflicted by Russian government operatives that I did so. I'm not aware of similar issues for opposition figures in all these 'corrupt Western nations'.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#257  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 29, 2019 8:26 am

Mike_L wrote:
You found some matching words and highlighted them in red. :clap:


Matching words because you're regurgitating RT's propaganda strategy. Yes, that was exactly the point. If I went back through this thread, I am sure I could find examples in all your posts. You have been infected by the parasite of propaganda, and it's now got you spending your time and resources trying really hard to infect others.


Mike_L wrote:
If it's just "vapid bullshit", then why do you feel the need to contest it so vigorously...


Ummm? Remember how this forum functions Mike? It's not just Creationism which gets demolished: bad ideas exist to be destroyed. And I already explained to you. Initially, I was hoping that you just needed a hand to elevate yourself out of the cesspit, but you're firmly wedged in and there's nothing I can do for you. I can, however, smack your vapid Kremlin propaganda out into the stratosphere because that's what it deserves. It has no home in a place designed for rational skepticism.


Mike_L wrote:... often with multiple posts in response to just one of mine?


Good plan - try the criticism of style instead.


Mike_L wrote:
If people want to slurp on the RT Kool Aid they can go and fucking read their website or watch their channel; they don't need you acting as a RT proxy regurgitating uncritically swallowed bullshit and championing it here.

Who is "they"? On whose behalf are you speaking? Can't these others decide for themselves which forum posts they do or don't want to read? What is it that they want? Have you asked them? Do they perhaps want an echo chamber...?


Who did I claim to be speaking on behalf of?
Where did I suggest people weren't capable of deciding which forum posts they do or don't want to read?
What they want is rational skepticism.
Yes.
No, but glad to see you've brought up the historical troll appeal, and how you're coming back round again to the new paradigm of Soviet-esque/far right pretense that thought is mandated and people should be given alternatives.

Have you asked whether people here need you to be a RT proxy mindlessly regurgitating uncritically swallowed propaganda? Only, it doesn't seem like anyone's interested, Mike. I'd suggest that rather than them all being intellectual puppets, it's because they're too informed for such propaganda to stick.

Given you appear to think it's credible, but it's literally InfoWars go-to source for a vast proportion of their articles, perhaps your judgment in this has been... somewhat clouded.


Mike_L wrote:"Putin is bad."
"Yeah. Totally."
"Absolutely evil."
"I gave your Putin-hating post a thumbs-up."
"Thanks. I returned the favor. I'd give it, like, a dozen thumbs up if I could."
"I love you as much as I hate Putin."
"I love you more, because I hate Putin more."


That's a nice little story you've got there. Of course, asking you to cite support for this would require imagining you posting a photograph of your belly-button.


Mike_L wrote:
I tried reasoning with you on the basis that I think you're a decent chap, and frankly I think you're heading down a path that is unhealthy and absurd, but I was clearly getting nowhere doing that. You toss out distraction whenever you're pinned on a point; you repeatedly engage in tu quoque even though the problem with that has already been explained to you; you keep using the same methodology employed by these bullshit artists, and just because you're a decent chap, you don't get a free pass to disseminate nonsense on this forum. You even got upset by assumed criticism of Catherine the fucking Great - a woman dead over 200 years, for Christ's sakes - that's how far down the rabbit hole you've fallen.


That's Empress Catherine the Great, if you don't mind!


You can try for a humorous diversion even though it still has the ring of ideological sycophancy, but the original post is still there:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news- ... l#p2702727

Mike_L wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Which is not only incredibly naive to believe that vote is legitimate, but is also very similar to how Russia came about annexing Crimea in the first place under Catherine.
If you're going to bash Empress Catherine over Crimea, then you can just as well bash King George III over modern-day Australia or bash Queen Isabella over modern-day America. Pointless.


Referring to historical fact is 'bashing' because...? Because it wasn't said in glowing tones about a historically glorious dear leader?

Rabbit hole, Mike. No one but you can help you out of it.


Mike_L wrote:
Like the standards on display in the 'Trump Watch' thread maybe? The thread where debate is near-absent, and each poster simply tries to outdo the other in inventing new Trump nicknames?


Is that true? I've not seen people trying to invent new Trump nicknames. I've seen people citing articles reporting the Trump administrations latest malfeasance.

A bit hard to square how this is meant to be comparable. You're tying yourself in knots trying to defend Putin and his regime, whereas that's a thread criticizing Trump's administration. Perhaps it's not meant to make any sense, and it's just you tossing out diversions again.


Mike_L wrote:Do you want a 'Putin Watch' thread where all those who loathe the guy assemble for two (or more) minutes hate before shuffling together for a virtual group hug?


Is that what I suggested I wanted?

You're back running your diversion strategy again, Mike. That promise to stop borderline trolling didn't even last one post.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#258  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 29, 2019 8:36 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:Saw on Twitter that Alexei Navalny, who's been sentenced to 30 days in prison for his role in those protests, had developed a "severe allergic reaction".


Sounds best when you imagine it in an Italian American accent.

He developed a... uh... severe allergic reaction to my... uh fists.

The shit this guy's gone through is unbelievable, but given the autocrat he's gone up again, he's lucky to be alive.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#259  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 29, 2019 8:37 am

Mike_L wrote:Can't these others decide for themselves which forum posts they do or don't want to read? What is it that they want? Have you asked them? Do they perhaps want an echo chamber...?


You know how creotards like to produce the phrase, "teach the controversy". That's all you're doing here. Now you're using exactly the same tactics that creotards use, and it's because you're just as desperate to preserve your little bubble of self-imposed ignorance as they are for theirs. It's a bit ambiguous in your case, as you might simply need something to push against in order to feel you're getting somewhere. A rocket you are not.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Russian and US ambitions and motivations

#260  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 29, 2019 8:56 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Mike_L wrote:Can't these others decide for themselves which forum posts they do or don't want to read? What is it that they want? Have you asked them? Do they perhaps want an echo chamber...?


You know how creotards like to produce the phrase, "teach the controversy".



Yup, exactly what I was thinking earlier. These pernicious strategies are intended only to appeal to those who can't think clearly. There's a clear overlap between the rhetorical strategies Creationists devised, and those employed today by the far-right in whinging about how they're underrepresented by 'mainstream media'.
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