truelgbt wrote:Whether atheism had any influence either way is not supportable either way. There is no way to determine this.

Exactly wrong. Atheism is a privative, and cannot have influence in this manner. There is no logical route between atheism and genocide.

I think

Not seen a huge amount of your work yet, but this claim stands entirely unsupported so far.

the OP was simply using the atheist genocide list to say, "Whether atheism had a part in these genocides I cannot say for sure but its one hellava coincidence that the most famous genocides of the 20th century and the dictators involved were atheists. That was his point. Coincidence.

No, it was a blatant commission of the 'atheist atrocities' fallacy, a well-known and long debunked attempt at poisoning the well, another fallacy, by attempting to associate all atheists with the genocidal dictators of the past, a fallacy of guilt by association, despite the fact that, for example, I have no association with any of them, because atheism isn't an association.

The amazing thing is, nobody on this forum has argued against or defended this 'coincidence' up to now.

Is it a coincidence? Yes or No? Why?

No, because it isn't actually true. Hitler, for example, was most definitely not an atheist.

That aside, those atrocities, and indeed all other genocides in history, including those of the OT, those of the 20th century and all others, are the result of adherence to doctrinal imperatives, which are features of religion. When Marx made communism an imperative, he turned it into a religion.

How about trying to answer my question, truelgbt?

truelgbt wrote:From an objective point of view,

Objectivity is something your point of view has yet to demonstrate about itself...

truelgbt wrote:genocide by God

From an objective point of view, "genocide by God" is a nonsense phrase. Was that your point? Just get to the point.

truelgbt wrote:can only be used as a claim against Christianity

When is it used as a claim against Christianity. It's usually used as a claim against the sort of God the Christians believe in.

truelgbt wrote:Or are you just saying that what they believe in makes them guilty of genocide too?

No, only an idiot (or somebody knowingly committing a rhetorical fallacy) would state that as a conclusion. So don't try to put words in anyone's posts.

truelgbt wrote:On the other hand, the list of genocides in the Original Post happened in modern times and are indeed true by all accounts although the actual numbers of those murdered varies somewhat but still in the millions dead.

People are nasty, and this in itself has nothing to do with religion. Religion just makes it easier to justify being nasty. Isn't that what you're up to, here?

hackenslash wrote:

truelgbt wrote:Whether atheism had any influence either way is not supportable either way. There is no way to determine this.

Exactly wrong. Atheism is a privative, and cannot have influence in this manner. There is no logical route between atheism and genocide.

I think

Not seen a huge amount of your work yet, but this claim stands entirely unsupported so far.

the OP was simply using the atheist genocide list to say, "Whether atheism had a part in these genocides I cannot say for sure but its one hellava coincidence that the most famous genocides of the 20th century and the dictators involved were atheists. That was his point. Coincidence.

No, it was a blatant commission of the 'atheist atrocities' fallacy, a well-known and long debunked attempt at poisoning the well, another fallacy, by attempting to associate all atheists with the genocidal dictators of the past, a fallacy of guilt by association, despite the fact that, for example, I have no association with any of them, because atheism isn't an association.

The amazing thing is, nobody on this forum has argued against or defended this 'coincidence' up to now.

Is it a coincidence? Yes or No? Why?

No, because it isn't actually true. Hitler, for example, was most definitely not an atheist.

That aside, those atrocities, and indeed all other genocides in history, including those of the OT, those of the 20th century and all others, are the result of adherence to doctrinal imperatives, which are features of religion. When Marx made communism an imperative, he turned it into a religion.

The list given by the OP is a Who's Who of the vast majority of genocidal maniacs of the 20th Century. In addition, they did not do most of the killing themselves since one dictator can't do all of them. So they must have had a multitude of followers of like mindedness who did the killing.

Of that entire list, you mention only ONE who was not an atheist: Hitler. What about all the others? Are you simply saying that their admission that they were, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, were evolutionists and/or atheists....was all a huge coincidence?

Do you believe in such coincidence?

I assume if they were all Christian or Muslim, you might be the first to point that fact out, but now the shoe is on your foot so its a 'coincidence' and nothing more?

truelgbt wrote:Do you believe in such coincidence?

Coincidence is not something about which to get excited. Data is what we want. Consider all the atheists you didn't mention.

truelgbt wrote:

The list given by the OP is a Who's Who of the vast majority of genocidal maniacs of the 20th Century. In addition, they did not do most of the killing themselves since one dictator can't do all of them. So they must have had a multitude of followers of like mindedness who did the killing.

Of that entire list, you mention only ONE who was not an atheist: Hitler. What about all the others? Are you simply saying that their admission that they were, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, were evolutionists and/or atheists....was all a huge coincidence?

Do you believe in such coincidence?

I assume if they were all Christian or Muslim, you might be the first to point that fact out, but now the shoe is on your foot so its a 'coincidence' and nothing more?

If you're not going to address the actual points being raised, there's no point in quoting your interlocutors post.
All that accomplishes is demonstrate that you have no interest in a rational discussion and are just here to spout ill-informed polemics.

Of that entire list, you mention only ONE who was not an atheist: Hitler. What about all the others? Are you simply saying that their admission that they were, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, were evolutionists and/or atheists....was all a huge coincidence?

Do you believe in such coincidence?

They were also all men. So what?

Is there a school of trolling out there cranking out new graduates?

RS

theropod wrote:Is there a school of trolling out there cranking out new graduates?

RS

They’re all homeschooled in their mom’s basement

I think there's an on-line course.

Well it teaches them the same old crap.

truelgbt! You're back! Praise Jesus!

It's my Atheistic Mind-meld wot dun it.

Passed down from Nimoy himself no doubt, now there's a proper atheist and no mistake.

truelgbt wrote:

hackenslash wrote:

truelgbt wrote:Whether atheism had any influence either way is not supportable either way. There is no way to determine this.

Exactly wrong. Atheism is a privative, and cannot have influence in this manner. There is no logical route between atheism and genocide.

I think

Not seen a huge amount of your work yet, but this claim stands entirely unsupported so far.

the OP was simply using the atheist genocide list to say, "Whether atheism had a part in these genocides I cannot say for sure but its one hellava coincidence that the most famous genocides of the 20th century and the dictators involved were atheists. That was his point. Coincidence.

No, it was a blatant commission of the 'atheist atrocities' fallacy, a well-known and long debunked attempt at poisoning the well, another fallacy, by attempting to associate all atheists with the genocidal dictators of the past, a fallacy of guilt by association, despite the fact that, for example, I have no association with any of them, because atheism isn't an association.

The amazing thing is, nobody on this forum has argued against or defended this 'coincidence' up to now.

Is it a coincidence? Yes or No? Why?

No, because it isn't actually true. Hitler, for example, was most definitely not an atheist.

That aside, those atrocities, and indeed all other genocides in history, including those of the OT, those of the 20th century and all others, are the result of adherence to doctrinal imperatives, which are features of religion. When Marx made communism an imperative, he turned it into a religion.

The list given by the OP is a Who's Who of the vast majority of genocidal maniacs of the 20th Century. In addition, they did not do most of the killing themselves since one dictator can't do all of them. So they must have had a multitude of followers of like mindedness who did the killing.

Of that entire list, you mention only ONE who was not an atheist: Hitler. What about all the others? Are you simply saying that their admission that they were, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, were evolutionists and/or atheists....was all a huge coincidence?

Do you believe in such coincidence?

I assume if they were all Christian or Muslim, you might be the first to point that fact out, but now the shoe is on your foot so its a 'coincidence' and nothing more?

All of them were also men. is it a coincindence ?

Who has let this git loose again?

truelgbt wrote:

hackenslash wrote:

truelgbt wrote:Whether atheism had any influence either way is not supportable either way. There is no way to determine this.

Exactly wrong. Atheism is a privative, and cannot have influence in this manner. There is no logical route between atheism and genocide.

I think

Not seen a huge amount of your work yet, but this claim stands entirely unsupported so far.

the OP was simply using the atheist genocide list to say, "Whether atheism had a part in these genocides I cannot say for sure but its one hellava coincidence that the most famous genocides of the 20th century and the dictators involved were atheists. That was his point. Coincidence.

No, it was a blatant commission of the 'atheist atrocities' fallacy, a well-known and long debunked attempt at poisoning the well, another fallacy, by attempting to associate all atheists with the genocidal dictators of the past, a fallacy of guilt by association, despite the fact that, for example, I have no association with any of them, because atheism isn't an association.

The amazing thing is, nobody on this forum has argued against or defended this 'coincidence' up to now.

Is it a coincidence? Yes or No? Why?

No, because it isn't actually true. Hitler, for example, was most definitely not an atheist.

That aside, those atrocities, and indeed all other genocides in history, including those of the OT, those of the 20th century and all others, are the result of adherence to doctrinal imperatives, which are features of religion. When Marx made communism an imperative, he turned it into a religion.

The list given by the OP is a Who's Who of the vast majority of genocidal maniacs of the 20th Century. In addition, they did not do most of the killing themselves since one dictator can't do all of them. So they must have had a multitude of followers of like mindedness who did the killing.

Of that entire list, you mention only ONE who was not an atheist: Hitler. What about all the others? Are you simply saying that their admission that they were, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, were evolutionists and/or atheists....was all a huge coincidence?

Do you believe in such coincidence?

I assume if they were all Christian or Muslim, you might be the first to point that fact out, but now the shoe is on your foot so its a 'coincidence' and nothing more?

Stalin was staunchly opposed to Nazism, and committed mass murder. So, clearly there is a link between aNazism and mass murder.

The whole point of theistic religions is control. In order to achieve control stories are invented to persuade the gullible that 'paradise' (a pleasant death) awaits those who accept control and 'hell' (an unpleasant death) for those who do not.
Some theistic religions (even today) deliberately kill (or get their gullible followers to kill), that is, send prematurely to 'hell', anyone who rejects control. This approach is also used against other theistic religions who would be considered rivals that would wrest control.
The above applies to any controlling group, theistic or not, that would use force to maintain control.

An atheist has a singular non-belief in the existence of a god and does not control anybody or anything with respect to that 'non-belief'. Therefore, an atheist killing anybody who does not have a 'non-belief' in a god is not logical. It is a stupid argument put forward by theists who wish to maintain control.

That is what religion is: control.

My opinion, from casual observation of trends...

Mass murder is orchestrated by extreme control freaks.
Extreme control freaks who are in power tend not to want people to believe there is a higher power than them, or their form of government (unless they can use that belief to their advantage).
That's about as far as the association goes.
The further back you go in the past the more likely any genocide is to have religious ties, because religion was more associated with power further back in history.
This at least is a good trend. Religious control and modern morality seem inversely proportional. More religion in today's world seems to be associated with more unjust societies, more war, more suffering overall.

The control freak aspect of mass murderers is most likely correct so I agree with you. However, the point of the OP in my opinion, was to point out that most genocidal dictators of the 20th century made self declarations and identified as atheists, as you can see from the quotes which are most likely legit since they are commonly quoted and almost never disputed.