Rumraket wrote:

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Prove how something can come from nothing.

Well if it can't then God making that transpire is out the question, isn't it?

Do you even abide by that same standard you are demanding of him? Can you prove that God can create something out of nothing?

Svartalf wrote:can you prove your uncreated god?

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

The_Piper wrote:

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

The_Piper wrote:Even if god did create the universe, then either something created god, or god came from nothing. This is not a profound insight, it's mere common sense. You still haven't answered any questions by thinking god did it.

If the universe is not a creation by a conscious creator, then what caused the very first physical event in whatever universe in a multiverse (whatever it may be)? Nothing whatsoever?

I'm not asking you to give a definitive answer. I'm just wondering what your speculation is. You don't really think that something can arise from nothing, do you? The buck has to stop somewhere, not at "nothing".

A couple of possibilities to consider are (let me know if you can think of any others) :

An infinite regression of physical events.
A conscious, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent, eternal, self existent, omniscient being affectionately known as God Almighty.

Well I'm flattered that you want to know my speculation on the origin of the universe. Unfortunately, I don't have anything worthwhile about that. I don't have any suspicion, or a favored explanation, either. I do know that postulating that god created the universe is an unsatisfactory explanation, because then you ought to show that god exists, and figure out where that god came from. It's making the subject much more complicated. There's no credible evidence for a being somehow large and powerful enough to create the universe. Did he use a hammer and nails? Did he recite some magic words?
If you don't believe that something can arise from nothing, then how the fuck can you believe in god? What did god come from? Is he made of regular matter? Why the hell should I believe that a god made the universe?

Prove how something can come from nothing.

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

Svartalf wrote:can you prove your uncreated god?

I expected an answer, not a question.

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

Adco wrote:I spotted this resurrected thread, read through some of it and want to try make a comment or two. Hopefully OT.

Why did there have to be a starting point? Could the "Big Bang" not have been a part of the flow of events that happens to occur along the timeline of universes popping out of nowhere by a mechanism that just is? No god reason, no mystery, just because that's the way these things work. This could be happening all the time and we wouldn't even know about it. Accept it.

The only reason some people want to credit god with the creation is their fears of the unknown. Human nature and nothing else. Going to take a while before that goes away. At least most of us here disregard that archaic way of thinking.

My answer to religious people is "how and why would a god even want to create such a huge universe with such diverse physics, with the ultimate aim of having a planet Earth, just so that people can worship him?". And, after all of that, he fucks off never to show his face again. Two thousand years and still waiting.

Would you say that this is a self existent universe that has no origin, and that instead it's an infinite regression of events, one giving rise, or as it were, creating, the next?

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

Rumraket wrote:

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Prove how something can come from nothing.

Well if it can't then God making that transpire is out the question, isn't it?

Do you even abide by that same standard you are demanding of him? Can you prove that God can create something out of nothing?

Can you prove that something can come from nothing?

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

Rumraket wrote:

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Prove how something can come from nothing.

Well if it can't then God making that transpire is out the question, isn't it?

Do you even abide by that same standard you are demanding of him? Can you prove that God can create something out of nothing?

Can you prove that something can come from nothing?

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

Svartalf wrote:can you prove your uncreated god?

I expected an answer, not a question.

Cito di Pense wrote:

THWOTH wrote:How might we support a claim to any objective fact without reference to the available evidence? What form of pure argument would you a) find personally acceptable, and b) support itself without evidence?

In other words, all you have accomplished with your statement above is to place conditions on the arguments of others which can never fullfil the requirements you've insisting on. You're now the creator of a fallacy-generating machine - which is nothing to boast about or gloat over.

The reason these sorts of conversations never go anywhere is that citations are not the same thing as evidence, barring a system in place to validate citations, such as peer review. But than, this requires one to be immersed in an academic community that knows the difference between peer-reviewed literature and gray literature. The issue is compounded by the proliferation of what look like academic publications, but amount to self-published ramblings. Only people who know what they're doing can sort out the gold from the tailings. So, these conversations never go anywhere. They're philosophical, about the conditions we shall or shall not place on arguments.

What's your explanation of the origin of the universe?

Yeah, it looks like a question, but it isn't. It's a schoolyard taunt, far from a schoolyard. There is no duty of care to respond to such shit seriously.

"What is this, kindergarten for babies?"

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Right so the universe always existed, for no particular reason. It was just there. That makes a lot of sense.

Destroyer wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Destroyer wrote:
Ever heard of a man called 'Job'? Poor fellow has no peers!

So it's not science you're talking about: it's mythology.

I get you.

The story of Job, although shrouded in myth, is actually about a programmed "piece of work to be done" by One particular human brain. The experience has no peers; which leaves Job contending with nothing but ignorant and orthodox ideas about God. Getting to know God as He really is entails such torment for one in the faithful and innocent service of God that Job accuses God of injustice and cruelty. In the end, Job is appeased, but why? No one has given him the answers that he seeks. God has only insisted on His majesty and power... But there is something in God's dialogue that is significant: He tells Job just how academically ignorant a man he really is. Job knows next to nothing about the workings of the universe and world in which he resides i.e., scientific knowledge which is so prevalent. So God invites him to study that world. It is in the study of the physical world that Job learns of God's non-existence. Job becomes appeased because he has learnt of God's contradictory Nature. Job is consequently able to reconcile fundamental Energy/God with mass and the physical universe.

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Prove how something can come from nothing.

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

Rumraket wrote:

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Prove how something can come from nothing.

Well if it can't then God making that transpire is out the question, isn't it?

Do you even abide by that same standard you are demanding of him? Can you prove that God can create something out of nothing?

Can you prove that something can come from nothing?

THWOTH wrote:I think you're pretty spot on here. The species of sceptical questions we so often see PK et al drop into topics like this are clearly not concerned with understanding or unravelling the facts of the matter but with inconsequential things like amassing a tally of presumed 'wins', tone policing, and setting the self-declated mythist up as the sole arbiter of truth. If the mythists were actually concerned with unravelling the facts of the matter they wouldn't feel the need to argue in such bad faith. But then again, at the end of the day faith is all they have, and I suppose for sone bad faith is still better than no faith at all.

Destroyer wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Destroyer wrote:
Ever heard of a man called 'Job'? Poor fellow has no peers!

So it's not science you're talking about: it's mythology.

I get you.

The story of Job, although shrouded in myth, is actually about a programmed "piece of work to be done" by One particular human brain. The experience has no peers; which leaves Job contending with nothing but ignorant and orthodox ideas about God. Getting to know God as He really is entails such torment for one in the faithful and innocent service of God that Job accuses God of injustice and cruelty. In the end, Job is appeased, but why? No one has given him the answers that he seeks. God has only insisted on His majesty and power... But there is something in God's dialogue that is significant: He tells Job just how academically ignorant a man he really is. Job knows next to nothing about the workings of the universe and world in which he resides i.e., scientific knowledge which is so prevalent. So God invites him to study that world. It is in the study of the physical world that Job learns of God's non-existence. Job becomes appeased because he has learnt of God's contradictory Nature. Job is consequently able to reconcile fundamental Energy/God with mass and the physical universe.