A universe from nothing

Study matter and its motion through spacetime...

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Re: A universe from nothing

#181  Postby Svartalf » Apr 30, 2019 1:35 pm

but where did god come from?
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Re: A universe from nothing

#182  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 30, 2019 1:37 pm

Rumraket wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Prove how something can come from nothing.

Well if it can't then God making that transpire is out the question, isn't it?

Do you even abide by that same standard you are demanding of him? Can you prove that God can create something out of nothing?


Can you prove that something can come from nothing?
The burden of proof falls on the ,,,theist.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#183  Postby Svartalf » Apr 30, 2019 1:42 pm

can you prove your uncreated god?
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Re: A universe from nothing

#184  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 30, 2019 1:44 pm

Svartalf wrote:can you prove your uncreated god?


I expected an answer, not a question.
The burden of proof falls on the ,,,theist.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#185  Postby Svartalf » Apr 30, 2019 1:47 pm

not my problem, the dogma of Creation by an uncreated being coming from who knows where feels to me a pretty ludicrous concept, but if you can prove it, we do have a firm basis for something coming out of nothing...
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Re: A universe from nothing

#186  Postby The_Piper » Apr 30, 2019 1:52 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
The_Piper wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
The_Piper wrote:Even if god did create the universe, then either something created god, or god came from nothing. This is not a profound insight, it's mere common sense. You still haven't answered any questions by thinking god did it.


If the universe is not a creation by a conscious creator, then what caused the very first physical event in whatever universe in a multiverse (whatever it may be)? Nothing whatsoever?

I'm not asking you to give a definitive answer. I'm just wondering what your speculation is. You don't really think that something can arise from nothing, do you? The buck has to stop somewhere, not at "nothing".

A couple of possibilities to consider are (let me know if you can think of any others) :

An infinite regression of physical events.
A conscious, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent, eternal, self existent, omniscient being affectionately known as God Almighty.

Well I'm flattered that you want to know my speculation on the origin of the universe. Unfortunately, I don't have anything worthwhile about that. I don't have any suspicion, or a favored explanation, either. I do know that postulating that god created the universe is an unsatisfactory explanation, because then you ought to show that god exists, and figure out where that god came from. It's making the subject much more complicated. There's no credible evidence for a being somehow large and powerful enough to create the universe. Did he use a hammer and nails? Did he recite some magic words?
If you don't believe that something can arise from nothing, then how the fuck can you believe in god? What did god come from? Is he made of regular matter? Why the hell should I believe that a god made the universe?


Prove how something can come from nothing.

Have you read what I've been writing? You're the one who has to prove that, I've never made a claim that something came from nothing. You claim that.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#187  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 30, 2019 2:53 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Svartalf wrote:can you prove your uncreated god?


I expected an answer, not a question.


Expect as much as you can dream of. Now, go bend a spoon. That'll earn you some respect.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#188  Postby Adco » Apr 30, 2019 3:18 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Adco wrote:I spotted this resurrected thread, read through some of it and want to try make a comment or two. Hopefully OT.

Why did there have to be a starting point? Could the "Big Bang" not have been a part of the flow of events that happens to occur along the timeline of universes popping out of nowhere by a mechanism that just is? No god reason, no mystery, just because that's the way these things work. This could be happening all the time and we wouldn't even know about it. Accept it.

The only reason some people want to credit god with the creation is their fears of the unknown. Human nature and nothing else. Going to take a while before that goes away. At least most of us here disregard that archaic way of thinking.

My answer to religious people is "how and why would a god even want to create such a huge universe with such diverse physics, with the ultimate aim of having a planet Earth, just so that people can worship him?". And, after all of that, he fucks off never to show his face again. Two thousand years and still waiting.


Would you say that this is a self existent universe that has no origin, and that instead it's an infinite regression of events, one giving rise, or as it were, creating, the next?

That sounds feasible. I don't think we will ever find out. It's not something I lose sleep over. Especially not wondering if god played any part in the existence of the universe. Perhaps the scientists will work out exactly what happened around the time of the Big Bang but I don't think they will ever get to determine what happened before. One of the great unknowns.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#189  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 30, 2019 3:39 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Prove how something can come from nothing.

Well if it can't then God making that transpire is out the question, isn't it?

Do you even abide by that same standard you are demanding of him? Can you prove that God can create something out of nothing?


Can you prove that something can come from nothing?

Transparent burden shifting is transparent.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#190  Postby Rumraket » Apr 30, 2019 3:42 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Prove how something can come from nothing.

Well if it can't then God making that transpire is out the question, isn't it?

Do you even abide by that same standard you are demanding of him? Can you prove that God can create something out of nothing?


Can you prove that something can come from nothing?

No. I don't believe it ever did.

Can you prove God can make something come from nothing?
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Re: A universe from nothing

#191  Postby Rumraket » Apr 30, 2019 3:43 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Svartalf wrote:can you prove your uncreated god?


I expected an answer, not a question.

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Re: A universe from nothing

#192  Postby Svartalf » Apr 30, 2019 3:53 pm

:ask: :lol: :cheers:
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Re: A universe from nothing

#193  Postby THWOTH » Apr 30, 2019 4:01 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
THWOTH wrote:How might we support a claim to any objective fact without reference to the available evidence? What form of pure argument would you a) find personally acceptable, and b) support itself without evidence?

In other words, all you have accomplished with your statement above is to place conditions on the arguments of others which can never fullfil the requirements you've insisting on. You're now the creator of a fallacy-generating machine - which is nothing to boast about or gloat over.


The reason these sorts of conversations never go anywhere is that citations are not the same thing as evidence, barring a system in place to validate citations, such as peer review. But than, this requires one to be immersed in an academic community that knows the difference between peer-reviewed literature and gray literature. The issue is compounded by the proliferation of what look like academic publications, but amount to self-published ramblings. Only people who know what they're doing can sort out the gold from the tailings. So, these conversations never go anywhere. They're philosophical, about the conditions we shall or shall not place on arguments.

What's your explanation of the origin of the universe?


Yeah, it looks like a question, but it isn't. It's a schoolyard taunt, far from a schoolyard. There is no duty of care to respond to such shit seriously.

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I think you're pretty spot on here. The species of sceptical questions we so often see PK et al drop into topics like this are clearly not concerned with understanding or unravelling the facts of the matter but with inconsequential things like amassing a tally of presumed 'wins', tone policing, and setting the self-declated mythist up as the sole arbiter of truth. If the mythists were actually concerned with unravelling the facts of the matter they wouldn't feel the need to argue in such bad faith. But then again, at the end of the day faith is all they have, and I suppose for sone bad faith is still better than no faith at all.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#194  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 30, 2019 4:01 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Right so the universe always existed, for no particular reason. It was just there. That makes a lot of sense.



As opposed to magical man living outside of time and space conjuring up a universe from nothing?

Yeah, makes a damn sight more sense even if it's wrong... it's not THAT wrong! :lol:
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Re: A universe from nothing

#195  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 30, 2019 4:02 pm

Destroyer wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
Ever heard of a man called 'Job'? Poor fellow has no peers!


So it's not science you're talking about: it's mythology.

I get you.

The story of Job, although shrouded in myth, is actually about a programmed "piece of work to be done" by One particular human brain. The experience has no peers; which leaves Job contending with nothing but ignorant and orthodox ideas about God. Getting to know God as He really is entails such torment for one in the faithful and innocent service of God that Job accuses God of injustice and cruelty. In the end, Job is appeased, but why? No one has given him the answers that he seeks. God has only insisted on His majesty and power... But there is something in God's dialogue that is significant: He tells Job just how academically ignorant a man he really is. Job knows next to nothing about the workings of the universe and world in which he resides i.e., scientific knowledge which is so prevalent. So God invites him to study that world. It is in the study of the physical world that Job learns of God's non-existence. Job becomes appeased because he has learnt of God's contradictory Nature. Job is consequently able to reconcile fundamental Energy/God with mass and the physical universe.



I don't think you understand Destroyer: I don't care at all about what you want to warble about. If you had any interesting ideas relevant to this topic, you'd share them. You don't have any interesting ideas relevant to this topic, which is why you don't share them and instead either want people to jump hoops for you, or to talk about mythology.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#196  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 30, 2019 4:04 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Prove how something can come from nothing.



Sky pixie wiggles his ineffable nose?
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Re: A universe from nothing

#197  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 30, 2019 4:05 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Prove how something can come from nothing.

Well if it can't then God making that transpire is out the question, isn't it?

Do you even abide by that same standard you are demanding of him? Can you prove that God can create something out of nothing?


Can you prove that something can come from nothing?



Can you prove that nothing can even exist?

No, well thanks for your vacuous contributions then.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#198  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 30, 2019 4:06 pm

THWOTH wrote:I think you're pretty spot on here. The species of sceptical questions we so often see PK et al drop into topics like this are clearly not concerned with understanding or unravelling the facts of the matter but with inconsequential things like amassing a tally of presumed 'wins', tone policing, and setting the self-declated mythist up as the sole arbiter of truth. If the mythists were actually concerned with unravelling the facts of the matter they wouldn't feel the need to argue in such bad faith. But then again, at the end of the day faith is all they have, and I suppose for sone bad faith is still better than no faith at all.


Bingo.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#199  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 30, 2019 5:24 pm

Destroyer wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
Ever heard of a man called 'Job'? Poor fellow has no peers!


So it's not science you're talking about: it's mythology.

I get you.

The story of Job, although shrouded in myth, is actually about a programmed "piece of work to be done" by One particular human brain. The experience has no peers; which leaves Job contending with nothing but ignorant and orthodox ideas about God. Getting to know God as He really is entails such torment for one in the faithful and innocent service of God that Job accuses God of injustice and cruelty. In the end, Job is appeased, but why? No one has given him the answers that he seeks. God has only insisted on His majesty and power... But there is something in God's dialogue that is significant: He tells Job just how academically ignorant a man he really is. Job knows next to nothing about the workings of the universe and world in which he resides i.e., scientific knowledge which is so prevalent. So God invites him to study that world. It is in the study of the physical world that Job learns of God's non-existence. Job becomes appeased because he has learnt of God's contradictory Nature. Job is consequently able to reconcile fundamental Energy/God with mass and the physical universe.

Which, of course, has nothing at all to do with you trying to make it everyone else's problem that you're unable to support any of your contentions. If you could, you would either do it or be content, like Job, rather than deploying this hackneyed sales pitch every chance you get, and spouting the sort of generic piety you have here, by comparing your experience to Job's, one that is a functional mythology only because it is supposed to be the experience of everyman.
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