Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

...in your home country?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Would you support the forced closure of all mosques in your home country?

Yes
10
10%
No
84
88%
Undecided
2
2%
 
Total votes : 96

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#541  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 13, 2015 11:11 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
And now we're back to lying, I swear we could make a bingo card out of this.


Well you can't come up with the goods can you, so how is it a lie? :snooty:

Because people have presented verses from the Qu'ran which promote peace, rather than violence.


And like I said were any of those verses uttered in Medina? You know if they are old Mecca verses they got replaced by the better Medina verses and Medina was the time of Holy war and booty.

You know that you''re cherry-picking just as much those No True Muslims you keep whining about?

Peter Brown wrote:Aside from that, what about the double meaning verses you mentioned, the ones Shiites read one way and Sunni another. Perhaps a few examples of these might break me? They both seem to hate the Jews equally.

Except they don't. Stop making shit up Peter.
I've no interest in presenting additional verses since you've failed to properly adress the initial ones I and others posted.

Peter Brown wrote:I do prefer the Mecca verses, who wouldn't and would most certainly settle to a no vote if all the Medina verses were removed from the Qur’an. It is my hope that one day they will find older Qur'ans and not just day they are incomplete because they lack the Medina verses.
It is possible because as you know, not all academics believe Muhammad was a real person, the whole Qur’an might have been a fabrication to justify the war after Muhammad died? Nobody who wasn’t a Muslim apparently met him did they?
I’d even vote no if dear ol’ Ken’s fable Muhammad’s last sermon was added to the end of the Quran as factual truth, that the Holy war was over and Muslims are no longer allowed to conquer other people like he did.

It's called cherry-picking Peter and you're just as much party to it as those No True Muslims you keep dismissing out of hand.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#542  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 13, 2015 11:16 pm

I'm not a Christian you do know that?

I so don't believe in any gods, I even think the two slit experiment is proof of the non existance of god, hows that for not believing in them.

But I no more understand how they get to become a death cult than I do most other cults. I can understand why the likes of Ken Ham believes in creationism, but Jesus riding dinosaurs in theme parks isnt the same as promoting Ken Ham as the the new Charles Manson.

If I were to close churches it would be for preaching homophobia, the hiding and cover up of paedophiles in the churches and dubious money dealings. Mostly different crimes to the list I posted about Islam, unless you are going to argue Muhammad never had sex with a nine year old.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#543  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 13, 2015 11:19 pm

You know that you''re cherry-picking just as much those No True Muslims you keep whining about?


Muhammad wrote the rules of the club, if you don't follow the rules you are not allowed in. Even if your from Scotland.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#544  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 13, 2015 11:22 pm

Peter Brown wrote:I'm not a Christian you do know that?

I do and haven't claimed otherwise.

Peter Brown wrote:I so don't believe in any gods, I even think the two slit experiment is proof of the non existance of god, hows that for not believing in them.

Where did I say you believe in any gods Peter?

Peter Brown wrote:But I no more understand how they get to become a death cult than I do most other cults. I can understand why the likes of Ken Ham believes in creationism, but Jesus riding dinosaurs in theme parks isnt the same as promoting Ken Ham as the the new Charles Manson.

You're missing the fact that these are Christians that preach, promote and practice violence based on verses from the bible.
Que No True Christian fallacy from Peter.....

Peter Brown wrote:If I were to close churches it would be for preaching homophobia, the hiding and cover up of paedophiles in the churches and dubious money dealings. Mostly different crimes to the list I posted about Islam, unless you are going to argue Muhammad never had sex with a nine year old.

Can you stop throwing straw-men around?
And not all churches are homophobic or hide pedophiles.
Just like not all mosques nor all Muslims support pedophelia.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#545  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 13, 2015 11:23 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
You know that you''re cherry-picking just as much those No True Muslims you keep whining about?


Muhammad wrote the rules of the club, if you don't follow the rules you are not allowed in. Even if your from Scotland.

God wrote the rules of the bible, which include stoning disobedient children, burning witches and a plethora of other immoral commands. You're not a Christian/Jew if you don't follow those rules. :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#546  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 13, 2015 11:24 pm

Ah, well you know if you're not fucking a nine year old then you aren't a real Muslim, them's the rules.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#547  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 14, 2015 1:08 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:
You know that you''re cherry-picking just as much those No True Muslims you keep whining about?


Muhammad wrote the rules of the club, if you don't follow the rules you are not allowed in. Even if your from Scotland.

God wrote the rules of the bible, which include stoning disobedient children, burning witches and a plethora of other immoral commands. You're not a Christian/Jew if you don't follow those rules. :roll:


who can argue with god. although the OT is for the Jews, the NT for the Christians, and not having a clue for the Afflecks

ISIS killed a few women recently for talking with elves, fuk knows where they came up with that being a stoning offence or who the elves were, and they stone street magicians too, well BBC reruns of Paul Daniels made them do that I guess.
If only they had you to advise them on reading the Qur’an, the world would be saved and rabbits appear from every fez.

but back to Jews, can you be a Jew if you don't follow the laws of Moses, or are you something else now? If your family were German 1000 years ago, but moved to India 999 years ago, are you still a German? Do you want to tell Dawkins we're are not all Africans?
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#548  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 14, 2015 1:13 am

I do and haven't claimed otherwise.


Just making sure
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#549  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 14, 2015 1:24 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Ah, well you know if you're not fucking a nine year old then you aren't a real Muslim, them's the rules.


It’s Hadith so not really a rule, just a guide to being as perfect as Muhammad, but you wouldn't know that. It was his last wife who told the Muslim community Muhammad married her at six years of age and took her away from her toys to bed her at nine years of age.
I don't think Jews or Christians are told to do this in the bible or by papal decree, but in your imagination who knows.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#550  Postby Macdoc » Jul 14, 2015 3:33 am

Late to the topic but I would support the taxng of ALL religious institutions. Enough of the free lunch. :coffee:
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#551  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 14, 2015 4:14 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:The Myanmar topic is interesting, worth its own thread I think.

The leaders of the anti Islamic movement follow a rather strange conpiracy theory that there is a Muslim plot to take over Myanmar, involving numerology (they are also called the 969 movement), resentment from colonial times (it's always Britain's fault) and other stuff. A lot of it is just nationalism. They may be monks, but I really don't see what their actions have to with Buddhism. Still the point is made, people from any religion (or irreligion) can behave like assholes. Buddhists aren't always that peaceful. See also the struggles between different Buddhist sects in Tibet and Japan, the nationalism in Sri Lanka, the discrimination against non-Buddhists in Bhutan and lots of other examples.



That's precisely the point. While the actual reasons for conflict there are layered, all it really comes down to is in-group v out-group, and religion's the most obvious flag. While Buddhists shouldn't be able to justify violence *ever*, even Buddhist monks are physically involved on the assaults on people and destruction of their property. The point, again made redundantly for everyone else except Peter, is that people can and do interpret their dogma any way they want to in order to suit their political and other agendas. Any notion of homogeneity is a mental construct, not a physical reality.


I agree.

The notion of citicizing a religion purely on some "fundamental core" is a bit futile. I don't really care all that much about the scriptures either, you have to judge people on how they act, not on what they read.


Exactly - it's not even arguable, as far as I can see. Just reading the Quran and self-identifying as a Muslim doesn't mean you immediately engage in acts of terrorism, or even mentally process any of the exhortations of violence. I know from my own experience as a Christian and from other Christians that all those hateful, bigoted, and inhumane sections of the Bible are just ignored.


Arjan Dirkse wrote:I agree with Peter much of the Quran is either really stupid or hateful, just like the Bible is. But that is literary criticism, not religious criticism.


Everyone so far has agreed with this - theologically, Islam is duff, borked, nasty, shite.... but it's some kind of genetic fallacy to thereby think that Muslims are too just because they believe in the book.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#552  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 14, 2015 4:17 am

Peter Brown wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:The problem is that Peter keeps making apologetic excuses for the horrendous things in the bible, but does no extend the same courtesy to the Qu'ran.


I would if I could see them, I have only your word they exist, no examples of double meanings have been forthcoming, just quote mines or redundant verses which are dishonest.



That's a load of bullshit, Peter.

I provided a list of quotes from the Quran specifically forbidding Muslims from engaging in violence.

You totally ignored them - made some comment about how I was cherrypicking, if memory serves - but didn't bother processing any of it.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#553  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 14, 2015 4:20 am

Peter Brown wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:The problem is that Peter keeps making apologetic excuses for the horrendous things in the bible, but does no extend the same courtesy to the Qu'ran.


I would if I could see them, I have only your word they exist, no examples of double meanings have been forthcoming, just quote mines or redundant verses which are dishonest.

And now we're back to lying, I swear we could make a bingo card out of this.


Well you can't come up with the goods can you, so how is it a lie? :snooty:



Everyone can now watch what happens when Peter is given the information (again) which he says doesn't exist.

Watch and learn, folks.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/islam ... 0#p2258055

Spearthrower wrote:It's not as if the Qur'an is empty of passages exactly the same as the 'thou shall not kill' - more picking of cherries towards a precanned agenda.

Qur’an 6:151: “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.”

5:53: “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

The Cow, 2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error."

8:61: “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.”

The Cow, 2:190: “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

I could easily keep going showing maybe dozens of passages which completely contradict the aggressive verses in the Qur'an. Once again, as atheists our position is surely that these books are internally incoherent, full of shite, necessarily nonsensical. Yet here we have atheists claiming that the Qur'an makes perfect sense and can only be read in one way, and that one way just happens to be the way that only violent extremists read it.

There's something very wrong there.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#554  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 14, 2015 4:26 am

Peter Brown wrote:I'm not a Christian you do know that?


We know you've said that, the problem is that you keep engaging in Christian apologetics, so your claim and your actions are in contradiction.


Peter Brown wrote:I so don't believe in any gods, I even think the two slit experiment is proof of the non existance of god, hows that for not believing in them.


Unsurprisingly nonsensical.


Peter Brown wrote:But I no more understand how they get to become a death cult than I do most other cults. I can understand why the likes of Ken Ham believes in creationism, but Jesus riding dinosaurs in theme parks isnt the same as promoting Ken Ham as the the new Charles Manson.


See History.


Peter Brown wrote:If I were to close churches it would be for preaching homophobia, the hiding and cover up of paedophiles in the churches and dubious money dealings.


You no more get to close churches than you do mosques. It's not even fantasy. Further, you wouldn't extend the same homogeneity to churches that you do to mosques. If a church hadn't been preaching homophobia or covering up paedophiles, it wouldn't need to be closed, according to your own criteria. What we use in such situations is the assumption of innocence until proven guilty - likewise with Muslims and their places of worship. If a mosque is used to promulgate hatred and violence, then by all means allow the justice system to deal with it. But don't collectivize guilt. I don't know how many times you need to read that before it sinks in.


Peter Brown wrote:Mostly different crimes to the list I posted about Islam, unless you are going to argue Muhammad never had sex with a nine year old.


Red herring. But from what I know, Mo didn't have sex with a 9 year old: he sexually abused her.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#555  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 14, 2015 4:27 am

Peter Brown wrote:
You know that you''re cherry-picking just as much those No True Muslims you keep whining about?


Muhammad wrote the rules of the club, if you don't follow the rules you are not allowed in. Even if your from Scotland.



And those rules are interpreted differently by the many different schools and sects, and by the individual Muslims who both manage to live in the modern world and consider themselves Muslims without ever engaging in violent extremism.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#556  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 14, 2015 4:32 am

Peter Brown wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:
You know that you''re cherry-picking just as much those No True Muslims you keep whining about?


Muhammad wrote the rules of the club, if you don't follow the rules you are not allowed in. Even if your from Scotland.

God wrote the rules of the bible, which include stoning disobedient children, burning witches and a plethora of other immoral commands. You're not a Christian/Jew if you don't follow those rules. :roll:


who can argue with god. although the OT is for the Jews, the NT for the Christians, and not having a clue for the Afflecks


Reported.


Peter Brown wrote:ISIS killed a few women recently for talking with elves, fuk knows where they came up with that being a stoning offence or who the elves were, and they stone street magicians too, well BBC reruns of Paul Daniels made them do that I guess.
If only they had you to advise them on reading the Qur’an, the world would be saved and rabbits appear from every fez.


ISIL did it, but this is not what all Muslims do, ergo - in Peter logic - ISIL are the true Muslims (tm), and all other Muslims should be charged with ISIL's crimes.


Peter Brown wrote:but back to Jews, can you be a Jew if you don't follow the laws of Moses, or are you something else now? If your family were German 1000 years ago, but moved to India 999 years ago, are you still a German? Do you want to tell Dawkins we're are not all Africans?


Being German equates to 2 different sets of description: cultural and genetic. A German family that moved to India 1000 years ago would have interbred with the locals thereby losing most or all of their German genetic legacy, while their children would have grown up in Indian culture and become Indian.

This is, of course, nothing remotely analogous as to a belief system, which is largely about self-identification. That German family who moved to India 1000 years ago might have been Christian, and their descendents today could still be Christian. They'd probably have a very unique set of beliefs from their isolated interpretation over the generations, but yes, they would still be Christian. It's not for us atheists to play the Spot the Heretic game.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#557  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 14, 2015 4:33 am

Peter Brown wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Ah, well you know if you're not fucking a nine year old then you aren't a real Muslim, them's the rules.


It’s Hadith so not really a rule, just a guide to being as perfect as Muhammad, but you wouldn't know that. It was his last wife who told the Muslim community Muhammad married her at six years of age and took her away from her toys to bed her at nine years of age.
I don't think Jews or Christians are told to do this in the bible or by papal decree, but in your imagination who knows.



Show where Muslims are told to do this or shut up.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#558  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 14, 2015 4:45 am

Peter Brown wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Ah, well you know if you're not fucking a nine year old then you aren't a real Muslim, them's the rules.


It’s Hadith so not really a rule, just a guide to being as perfect as Muhammad, but you wouldn't know that. It was his last wife who told the Muslim community Muhammad married her at six years of age and took her away from her toys to bed her at nine years of age.
I don't think Jews or Christians are told to do this in the bible or by papal decree, but in your imagination who knows.

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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#559  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 14, 2015 8:30 am

Peter Brown wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:
You know that you''re cherry-picking just as much those No True Muslims you keep whining about?


Muhammad wrote the rules of the club, if you don't follow the rules you are not allowed in. Even if your from Scotland.

God wrote the rules of the bible, which include stoning disobedient children, burning witches and a plethora of other immoral commands. You're not a Christian/Jew if you don't follow those rules. :roll:


who can argue with god. although the OT is for the Jews, the NT for the Christians, and not having a clue for the Afflecks

And ignoring contradictory evidence for Peter. As is petulant name-calling.
I already corrected you on the OT-is-for-the-Jews cherry-picking.
Mindlessly regurgitating it won't make it any less cherry-picking Peter.

Peter Brown wrote:ISIS killed a few women recently for talking with elves, fuk knows where they came up with that being a stoning offence or who the elves were, and they stone street magicians too, well BBC reruns of Paul Daniels made them do that I guess.

Yes ISIS does bad things, nobody's disputing that.
What we're disputing is your asinine assertion that they represent some TrueTM form of Islam.

Peter Brown wrote:If only they had you to advise them on reading the Qur’an, the world would be saved and rabbits appear from every fez.

Seriously Peter, stop with these pathetic straw-men.

Peter Brown wrote:but back to Jews,

Let me guess, you're going to spew some more hypocritical apologetics?

Peter Brown wrote: can you be a Jew if you don't follow the laws of Moses, or are you something else now? If your family were German 1000 years ago, but moved to India 999 years ago, are you still a German? Do you want to tell Dawkins we're are not all Africans?
[/quote]
Wow, I was mistaken, it's word salad time. :doh:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#560  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 14, 2015 8:31 am

Peter Brown wrote:
I do and haven't claimed otherwise.


Just making sure

No, just dodging the points you cannot adress honestly.
There's no need to make sure of positions already expressed multiple times.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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