gobshite wrote:I don't want anyone to tell me what to do. Not sure where you are going with that bizarre line of "reasoning".

Yes, the list of things you can't figure out grows longer by the post.

I'm just wondering if you are going to back your opinion up with something other than an argument from incredulity.

You seem to be parroting terms you don't understand. I haven't presented an opinion. Your idiotic idea of harassing regular people at the airport didn't work, that's a fact. XR stated as much. But still here you are, pestering random people as if you haven't learned a thing. Keep yelling at people for warning you that you've stepped in dog shit, maybe next time they'll give you the answers you so desperately seek

tuco wrote:Nowhere, going nowhere. In time you will find out that some people go nowhere and keep posting just because that is what they like to do. There is no point, there is nothing to learn, it's like talking with them about the weather with the difference that they refuse to cooperate. Just ignore them.

Nah, I like to have a little poke at people who say stupid shit, then insist on saying more. It's all you can do sometimes when a person makes it clear they aren't amenable to reason. At that point it isn't for them, it's for the entertainment of others. You can, of course, choose to ignore it.

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edit: As far as what XR achieved. Well, it's hard to measure but it seems to me that they raised awareness about the issue at hand quite a bit which is invaluable to the cause. First, people need to realize they are doing it wrong, then they can fix it and fixing it takes time.

I just hope they don't continue with their tone deaf antics, giving fodder to those who would gain by environmentalists looking like fools. We can't really afford to be cleaning up their mess as well.

I am not a marketing expert nor I have data to go by. Whether XR approach is deaf or not .. I care about results and, now I repeat, to me it seems they raised awareness, which is as needed as it was with CO2 emissions not that long ago. We can argue this senseless. I think - you think, you know how it goes, cool stories. What is the point? Its not like we can prove each other, ourselves respectively, right or wrong. Perhaps Pussy Riot showing their tits in a church was deaf and they should .. pour all that energy into figuring out a way that will actually accomplish something besides pissing off people trying to go church, but this is all bullshit. If anything, they have a good and rational cause, now Cito is all happy :), they believe in and they are doing something. Probably more than most of us.

It is hard to know to what positive extent XR has raised consciousness and proactive deeds regarding the climate emergency. Getting the UK gov to declare a climate emergency alone is SURELY a milestone to be proud of. Yes, there are doubtless some who have and will react to XR with entrenching themselves in their ignorant, selfish, stagnant "business as usual" ways, but I'll wager their number to be vanishingly small compared to those who have been positively environmentally influences by our deeds and promo. Infected by the XR virus - wakey wakey eggs and bakey the world over - forwaaaard! (I put this image together a while back and now seems on topic).

If it did not bother anyone, nobody would care. If people cared they could find everything needed online, but they don't. They live their lives: work, family, sex, sleep, eat, shopping, holidays, TV, whatever .. we all know how it goes. Only fanatics expend time and energy for the good, imaginary or real, of others.

tuco wrote:Only fanatics expend time and energy for the good, imaginary or real, of others.

Surely that is a polarised and unrealistic assessment. Soup kitchens anyone? At base, it feels good to do good, to all but the...bitter?

ETA: is newolder a fanatic because he changed his avatar to the Warming Stripes? You ain't gotta glue yourself to tube trains to help out ya know.

tuco wrote:I am not a marketing expert nor I have data to go by. Whether XR approach is deaf or not .. I care about results

Well if you're interested in results, you can look at XR's own statement about it -- nobody capitulated to any of their demands. But hey, at least some people got harassed at the airport, so that's got to be some kind of accomplishment, right? Cool story!

and, now I repeat, to me it seems they raised awareness,

And if you think any publicity is good publicity, that's nice. But if you consider the fact that everyone's already aware that shit's bad for the environment, and have had it drilled into their heads for decades, it doesn't really sound like much of an accomplishment in and of itself, does it? I mean, is there anyone anywhere who didn't know that anything involving emissions is bad for the environment? Anyone? Bueller??

Well, maybe people forgot somehow. Or maybe XR should focus on strategies that reach people instead of trying to guilt trip them into the ground, like gobshite laughably tried to do here. I mean, if getting somewhere is the goal. If spinning your wheels and potentially making environmentalists look foolish is the goal, well then what can I say?

which is as needed as it was with CO2 emissions not that long ago. We can argue this senseless. I think - you think, you know how it goes, cool stories. What is the point? Its not like we can prove each other, ourselves respectively, right or wrong.

You clearly haven't been following the conversation. And that's okay, it's mostly just me pointing out the same obvious thing, and one person after another ignoring it and going on a righteousness streak. "B-b-but you don't have the answers for me! Now you must feel shamed!!" Right and wrong have nothing to do with it. It's just another stupid tactic, and silly me for pointing out it's a stupid tactic.

Perhaps Pussy Riot showing their tits in a church was deaf and they should .. pour all that energy into figuring out a way that will actually accomplish something besides pissing off people trying to go church, but this is all bullshit. If anything, they have a good and rational cause, now Cito is all happy , they believe in and they are doing something. Probably more than most of us.

You're of the mind that doing anything, no matter how thoughtless, is worth something. Cool story. You folks want to ignore what seems like the really obvious negative impacts of such a strategy, cool story. That's fine. But if folks like gobshite want to ignore it and spew their righteous indignation at me, I'll just point and

tuco wrote:If it did not bother anyone, nobody would care. If people cared they could find everything needed online, but they don't. They live their lives: work, family, sex, sleep, eat, shopping, holidays, TV, whatever .. we all know how it goes. Only fanatics expend time and energy for the good, imaginary or real, of others.

Pretty much this. The latest disruption here in Canada is a case in point. It’s easy to miss or even ignore indigenous issues as they are out of sight and therefore out of mind for most Canadians. As much as the rail blockades pissed off a whole lot of people, a whole bunch more people have an understanding of the issues they didn’t have before. As the saying goes, there is no such thing as bad press.

felltoearth wrote:

tuco wrote:If it did not bother anyone, nobody would care. If people cared they could find everything needed online, but they don't. They live their lives: work, family, sex, sleep, eat, shopping, holidays, TV, whatever .. we all know how it goes. Only fanatics expend time and energy for the good, imaginary or real, of others.

Pretty much this. The latest disruption here in Canada is a case in point. It’s easy to miss or even ignore indigenous issues as they are out of sight and therefore out of mind for most Canadians. As much as the rail blockades pissed off a whole lot of people, a whole bunch more people have an understanding of the issues they didn’t have before. As the saying goes, there is no such thing as bad press.

I'd disagree of course, but if you've got evidence that there's a greater understanding, then good on them.

Retrospective apologies for ever having any admiration for people like Gandhi and MLK who may have inconvenienced anyone.

They did at least have the decency to not mischaracterize other people's points, bless them.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

felltoearth wrote:

tuco wrote:If it did not bother anyone, nobody would care. If people cared they could find everything needed online, but they don't. They live their lives: work, family, sex, sleep, eat, shopping, holidays, TV, whatever .. we all know how it goes. Only fanatics expend time and energy for the good, imaginary or real, of others.

Pretty much this. The latest disruption here in Canada is a case in point. It’s easy to miss or even ignore indigenous issues as they are out of sight and therefore out of mind for most Canadians. As much as the rail blockades pissed off a whole lot of people, a whole bunch more people have an understanding of the issues they didn’t have before. As the saying goes, there is no such thing as bad press.

I'd disagree of course, but if you've got evidence that there's a greater understanding, then good on them.

There is, as people have circulated info on how indigenous government actually works, how Canadians don’t “give” First Nations people money, how truth and reconciliation actually works, and some pushback in racist tropes online. There’s a long way to go but people are now better prepared to talk about it.

Keep It Real wrote:

tuco wrote:Only fanatics expend time and energy for the good, imaginary or real, of others.

Surely that is a polarised and unrealistic assessment. Soup kitchens anyone? At base, it feels good to do good, to all but the...bitter?

Well, it's for an off-topic debate whether or not "excessive zeal" directly implies a rather large abnormality, and what normality is. Surely, there is a difference between running a soup kitchen and a disobedience group. If it bothers you personally, I don't have to use is but I will still think it.

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edit: Recently I've read stuff about otaku, can recommend if you are not aware, so maybe otaku expend time and energy that special way mmh?

SafeAsMilk wrote:They did at least have the decency to not mischaracterize other people's points, bless them.

Well, if I inadvertently mischaracterized tuco's jibe about 'only fanatics work to benefit their communities' remark, I will be happy to learn from anyone who cares to explain.

proudfootz wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:They did at least have the decency to not mischaracterize other people's points, bless them.

Well, if I inadvertently mischaracterized tuco's jibe about 'only fanatics work to benefit their communities' remarks, I will be happy to learn from anyone who cares to explain.

No I think it was a misunderstanding on my part, so apologies and carry on

It happens sometimes. No worries.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

I'm just wondering if you are going to back your opinion up with something other than an argument from incredulity.

You seem to be parroting terms you don't understand. I haven't presented an opinion.

Umm, yes you have. You stated that it's "obvious" that disrupting an airport is a bad tactic. You are incredulous that it could be anything other than the "obvious" thing your limited imagination can grasp.

Your idiotic idea of harassing regular people at the airport didn't work, that's a fact.

Oh look, another baseless opinion. You need to look up the word "fact" in the dictionary, bro.

Keep yelling at people for warning you that you've stepped in dog shit, maybe next time they'll give you the answers you so desperately seek

I'm not yelling at anyone. Your rhetoric really needs some work. I'm just trying to get you to back up your empty opinions. Looks like it's never going to happen.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

tuco wrote:Nowhere, going nowhere. In time you will find out that some people go nowhere and keep posting just because that is what they like to do. There is no point, there is nothing to learn, it's like talking with them about the weather with the difference that they refuse to cooperate. Just ignore them.

Nah, I like to have a little poke at people who say stupid shit, then insist on saying more. It's all you can do sometimes when a person makes it clear they aren't amenable to reason.

Reason? Argument from incredulity isn't reason, bro.

Safe as milk's problem (other than having the rhetoric skills of a teenager), is that his view of civil disobedience as a protest tactic is too narrowly focussed. Sure, directly disrupting some people going about their business will piss some of them off*. But the people disrupted is a tiny fraction of the people who the protest message reaches. When you look at the broader picture of a protest action, you can see how an act of disruption can actually lead to greater awareness and support for the protest cause.

* Interestingly, as safe as milk would know if he'd ever been to a protest, not everyone who is disrupted is pissed off about the disruption. It's very common to find supporters amongst the disrupted.